My first advice is to try and turn off simple navigation in review
settings. (I created a configuration profile for this). Now, use object
navigation to see if you can spot that text. If you can, can you press
nvda+f1, copy the rest of the log from there to the bottom and paste it
here (assuming it's not private info in any way)? That is called the
developer info. we should probably see where that information is, and if
it actually changes at all. Then, we would either create event_BLABLABLA
or something. We might either design the add-on with an overlay class,
or with an simple events on the global plugin, and then speak it. The
idea is to figure out where that text is, and then a way in which to
figure out if the object the event is fired on is that object or if it's
another object. also, we need to figure out if the event ever gains
keyboard focus, as that we can fix by telling NVDA to set focus to it.
Does any of this not make sense (should I explain any particular concept
in more detail)?
On 4/13/2016 4:45 PM, Damien Sykes-Pendleton wrote:
Hi,
The program is a family tree builder – so far the only accessible one I have found.
When you select a person in the primary navigation area it shows up summary information for them, (date and place of birth, date, place, and age at marriage, and date, place and age at death). This read automatically when I used to use JAWS, so I’m guessing it’s a simple case of trying to tell NVDA where that information is, and/or how to access it so that it too can speak the information automatically.
Kind regards,
Damien.
*From:* derek riemer <mailto:driemer.riemer@xxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2016 11:30 PM
*To:* nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [nvda-addons] Re: Developing Addons - The best way to get started?
Can you give an example of what the text you want spoken is and when it isn't spoken?
On 4/13/2016 1:36 PM, Damien Sykes-Pendleton wrote:
Hi there,
Not sure if my messages came through yesterday, so sending it again.
When I began the process of trying to learn addon development, I attempted to write an application-based addon that would read textual information that was otherwise being overlooked. I may have used another addon as a starting point but I had no idea as to what the actual issue was or what my particular circumstances were, other than the text was not being read when it should be.
What I vaguely know is that the system creates controls as physical graphics with different identifying factors such as locations and what should happen if it is activated that make it what it is. I know nothing about how it works in depth – I’m not even sure if it is a control object that is at fault, since the information is text only.
I can’t even refer back to my script, my computer crashed since then, and as it didn’t work I don’t think that would necessarily help anyway.
One thing I did manage is to apply the first example app module to the application I want to change as opposed to Notepad, I.E. making it beep on the gain focus event. Even if I so much as moved the cursor, pressed Tab, went into menus etc, it beeped all the time, so not sure if that’s to do with keyboard input or whatever. If so then that’s not the issue. Key commands are being recognised fine, it’s just what is, or in this case isn’t, being spoken by NVDA itself.
I really would like to tackle this and nip it in the bud. I doubt at this moment in time I could work on NVDA itself given my limited knowledge of how both the codebase and the project management works, so I guess the least I can do is to write addons.
Thanks.
Kind regards,
Damien.
*From:* derek riemer <mailto:driemer.riemer@xxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 12, 2016 5:59 PM
*To:* nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [nvda-addons] Re: Developing Addons - The best way to get started?
Hi,
It really depends what you intend your add-on to do. Do you think some code should execute? Test it by either importing logHandler, and logging with one of the methods there, or use tones.beep to beep as the first thing that happens in that function. Also, it shouldn't play the error sound unless you are running master or next. Look for errors in your log, test your add-on with master or next, or go to the NVDA python console and run >>> import versionInfo
>>> versionInfo.isTestVersion = True
Then the sound should happen. You could write an add-on to set this to true at NVDA Startup (Hint) just putting that in a python file in the globalPlugins folder should do it. Do not be afraid to ask us questions if you have a hypothesis about some control, and a way in which you are trying to make it work. I promise you, there are no dumb questions here. If it is a script, be sure to bind it to a gesture. If it is one of the meriad of events, then you may very well just have to play with trying multiple events until you find the right one. That's where making NVDA play different tones for different events is super helpful.
HTH
On 4/12/2016 10:32 AM, Damien Sykes-Pendleton wrote:
Hi there,
OK. So I now have a fair grasp of the Python language. Luckily because I’ve tried so many times before and failed it was just a case of refreshing my memory as to what different things meant, and reading more in-depth those things that I didn’t understand. I think it kind of helped that the easy stuff was, well, easy, and the harder stuff I have covered before in other languages, but they are termed or written differently. I think one thing that confused me a lot when I started out is how all classes inherit from object, when an instance of a class is also called an object. Wow...Deep stuff.
Also, this time, I have seen Python code in action, having installed Python itself. It’s odd, but I think that helped me more than I realised it would. Reading code and then seeing it work seems to impress things more firmly into memory (Human, that is).
Now that I’ve done that, it seems when I tried this before that the thing I was struggling with most were NVDA concepts. There were no errors triggered (At least I don’t think), but the addon itself that I created didn’t work.
Is there anything else I need to look at? The development guide has become a little easier in some respects but I’m still in the dark about others, for instance application controls, accessing them, reading them, event triggers, etc.
Thanks.
Kind regards,
Damien.
*From:* derek riemer <mailto:driemer.riemer@xxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Friday, April 08, 2016 6:17 PM
*To:* nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [nvda-addons] Re: Developing Addons - The best way to get started?
Hi,
Please feel free to ask us (especially me) anyy development questions you have. I can try to help. Please believe me when I say I know where you are coming from, I had to learn all this myself, and it is damn hard. Even if you ask "This button is not speaking, How should I try to make it speak?" I will try to walk you in the right direction.
On 4/8/2016 5:56 AM, Damien Sykes-Pendleton wrote:
Hi James,
Again. This proves just how much, or little, knowledge I have on this subject. I always assumed that the information that NVDA uses to evaluate the functionality or purpose of a control was through the Windows API. When I wrote my first addon that didn't involve copying and pasting from an example, it was to read content that NVDA didn't recognise on its own for whatever reason, that other screen readers did. This didn't work. My theory for this is that I was pretty much guessing what I had to do to get it to work, and of course that is not the way to understand your own code. It helps to understand what your code needs to do, something of which I understood very little, if not nothing at all. If you can't understand that, you need to be able to understand what you want to do. Although I know what I want to do in terms of functionality, translating that into code is very difficult, given that I don't know about all the underlying structures such as in-depth control information (ID, handle, class etc), NVDA objects, accessibility platforms, the list goes on and on.
As for learning Python itself, this is not so much the problem as remembering every single thing I'm reading. When I look at a Python tutorial, I'm thinking, yes this makes sense. Sounds good to me. Oh wow, I've finished the tutorial. Let's go back to addons. Oh wait, what did the tutorial say about this? I don't remember that part...Look back at the tutorial. Oh, it's not in here. This must be an NVDA specific reference. Either that, or, Ah yes, I remember this now. Now how was the addon guide referencing this?
I'm trying to explain it the best way I can, because there isn't one specific example or situation that I can pinpoint without referencing something else, it's all linked, hence the massive confusion which, if we're talking code, is making my brain go into an infinite loop.
Kind regards,
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: James Scholes
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 12:25 PM
To: nvda-addons@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [nvda-addons] Re: Developing Addons - The best way to get started?
Replies inline.
Damien Sykes-Pendleton wrote:
Well if we're constraining ourselves to the facts, I can only really
say what I have said before, in that the developer guide assumes a
good working knowledge of Python and NVDA's internal workings,
neither of which I feel I have enough of to really get going.
First, tackle Python. You need a good, working knowledge of the
language to write NVDA add-ons. This will never change, no matter how
much documentation is written. Create some small Python projects which
make use of object-oriented programming, inheritance, wxPython.
It is incredibly important to understand that creating NVDA add-ons is
not at all like writing JAWS scripts. With JAWS scripting, the language
is proprietary and the creators of that language decide in advance what
functionality you have access to. NVDA not only gives you the full
power of the Python language, but also lets you write code which runs in
the same environment as NVDA's core, meaning that you can literally do
whatever you like, only constrained by your imagination and knowledge.
Naturally, this provides a lot of room for error, so NVDA add-on writing
often comes with a lot of responsibility. That is why there is a
higher barrier to entry. It's up to you to decide whether that barrier
is worth scaling or not. But nobody, on this list or otherwise,
will ever be able to create documentation that explains every possible
aspect of creating NVDA add-ons. Having said that, the community has
created some extra documentation, which I will leave it up to them to share.
I have looked into Python, both on the official language tutorial
and from Learn Python the Hard Way. Although these are both good
resources, they are also very extensive to the point that by the
time I have read them and gone back to the developer guide, I'm
trying to conceptualise everything else into Python terms rather than
NVDA terms
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. NVDA is Python. Granted, to
write a good add-on, you have to be aware of some of NVDA's internals,
but really, you need to give us examples of what you're trying to do and
why it's posing a problem. If you have a good understanding of Python
as I said above, writing NVDA add-on boilerplate will be easy.
some of which can be done but easily forgotten, or others which can't
be done at all.
Again, I have no idea what you mean. What Python features,
functionality or concepts are you having difficulty translating into
valid concepts to be used in an NVDA add-on?
Then, as I have also said before, there
is the vagueness of references, such as "Refer to the NVDA code
documentation". I cannot find this documentation anywhere, even in
the NVDA source code.
If you check out the NVDA source code and read the accompanying readme
files, you will see instructions on generating the NVDA code
documentation. You can also browse an online copy, although I don't
think it's updated on a regular basis, at:
https://files.derekriemer.com/nvda/module-tree.html
Honestly though, I think most NVDA developers will tell you that reading
the code itself is usually better than the documentation. If you're
hoping that the code documentation will shine a light on everything that
has hitherto seemed confusing, you'll be seriously disappointed. The
code documentation is constructed from Python docstrings. It's a terse
reference, not a guide.
Even so, I doubt I'd be able to glean much
from it, since NVDA has a lot of in-depth interaction with the
operating system which, when it comes to development, I know hardly
anything about the workings of. This then also adds the Windows API
to my reference list, and now I feel like I am on a road of
information overload.
Any portions of the Windows API that are used by NVDA have already been
wrapped as simple Python functions for use in higher level abstractions.
Unless you need to use a part of it that hasn't already been defined as
such, you don't need to understand the ins and outs of that.
Additionally, it's highly unlikely that, for your first add-ons, you'll
even need to use such functionality. Rather, you'll interact with the
abstractions that NVDA provides.
To sum up:
1. Learn Python. If you don't know the language, if you can't write
scripts or small programs in it, you will have a hard time writing code
for NVDA.
2. Get familiar with reading other people's Python code. You'll be
doing a lot of that if you want to create high quality add-ons.
3. Give us examples of things you're finding hard. We don't need an
article, we just need you to explain what you don't understand so we can
point you in the right direction.
4. Don't run before you can walk. If you're struggling with how to
create the most basic of add-ons, the Windows API isn't even a distant
concern.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Riemer
* Department of computer science, third year undergraduate student.
* Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
* Open source enthusiast.
* Member of Bridge Cu
* Avid skiier.
Websites:
Honors portfolio <http://derekriemer.com>
Awesome little hand built weather app! <http://django.derekriemer.com/weather/>
mailto:derek.riemer@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Phone: (303) 906-2194
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Riemer
* Department of computer science, third year undergraduate student.
* Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
* Open source enthusiast.
* Member of Bridge Cu
* Avid skiier.
Websites:
Honors portfolio <http://derekriemer.com>
Awesome little hand built weather app! <http://django.derekriemer.com/weather/>
mailto:derek.riemer@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Phone: (303) 906-2194
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Riemer
* Department of computer science, third year undergraduate student.
* Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
* Open source enthusiast.
* Member of Bridge Cu
* Avid skiier.
Websites:
Honors portfolio <http://derekriemer.com>
Awesome little hand built weather app! <http://django.derekriemer.com/weather/>
mailto:derek.riemer@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Phone: (303) 906-2194
