[lit-ideas] Re: The torture graph
- From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 12:06:14 -0400
Lawrence, your first premise concerning the Soviet Union is unsupported
emotional conjecture. As far as comparing the global problem of terrorism to a
movie with Clint Eastwood, that has a medieval ring to it. Are you suggesting
that life should imitate art, like applying the Code of Chivalry to real life,
when in fact the Code of Chivalry was an illusion, a self-contradicting
fantasy? We should model our behaviors on movies with guaranteed good endings?
I think an argument can be made that the treatment of women by Muslim
Fundamentalists is in fact the Code of Chivalry taken to its logical
conclusion. Can you clarify the thinking that is going into your statements?
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 4/7/2006 11:12:25 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The torture graph
Eric,
Well, we are at war and I?m impatient with hearing the same anti-American
plaint. After being away from the discussions for a few days and not willing
to strain my eyes unnecessarily, I merely skimmed the notes but it was enough
to see a pattern. The pattern of most of the notes was one of hostility toward
the U.S. I expect our enemies to be hostile toward us; so it is reasonable and
logical for Islamist and Islamic Fundamentalists to be hostile toward us. It
is also logical for those who supported Soviet Russia during the cold war to be
hostile toward us. Just because the USSR lost the Cold War doesn?t mean that
its supporters are automatically going to fall in love with us.
Doesn?t a pattern of hostility toward the U.S. on a given matter coupled with
no hostility toward an enemy engaged in far more egregious examples of the same
matter indicate a predilection? It strikes me that it does. I can?t claim to
have charted his notes, but it seems to me Omar exhibits such a pattern.
Doesn?t he cherry-pick the news looking for articles especially hostile to the
United States, our military, our administration etc. One he just referred me
to compared our government and military personnel to Nazis.
What do people think when they see Dirty Harry? When I watched that movie I
saw the San Franciscan government as crippled. It wasn?t equipped to deal with
the killer holding the city captive. In every case the mayor and chief of
police did what was legal and politically correct, and the killer kept on
killing. Dirty Harry did what was necessary (including some torture if I
recall correctly) to stop the killer and save as many innocent lives as
possible. Omar?s author would call Dirty Harry a Nazi engaged in evil, but
the people who admire Dirty Harry obviously wouldn?t. They see the SF
government as coddling criminals and neglecting citizens. They admire Dirty
Harry for doing the right thing. If you were in that kind of trouble would you
want the Chief of Police or Dirty Harry looking out for you? And since you are
in that kind of trouble would you prefer Al Gore or George Bush looking out for
you?
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Eric Yost
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 11:34 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The torture graph
Lawrence: No guts, no willingness to fight, too
timid by far, Osama says. And true to his
assessment we anguish over the fact that we are
human, that a small percentage (as occurs in every
fighting force) is going to misbehave. We say
never mind about the enemy, what about those of us
who misbehave? We say never mind about the people
trying to blow us up, what about the use of
excessive force in trying to find out whom our
enemy is.
Eric: People don't really think we're at war. They
think it's a bad dream that will go away if they
can only pin it all on Bush. It's a creepy kind of
nihilism, and I think it comes from the feeling of
being betrayed by the government too many times.
Remember around the time Nixon resigned, the
government WAS the enemy for many people. We
believed our own Cold War propaganda too much
perhaps, and Vietnam/Watergate showed us up as
suckers. The nihilism is also fashionable since it
gives a sort of glamor to alienation.
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