[lit-ideas] Re: The torture graph
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:30:01 -0700
Your note is just more of the same. Anything that supports the U.S. is to
be criticized. Taking care of innocent victims is medieval????? What is
medieval is the Islamist and Islamic Fundamentalist ideology. That is ewll
documented. Only to someone hostile to the U.S. would think rescuing
innocent victims is Medieval. And it has been document by others that those
who supported the USSR up to the end mourn its loss. They hate the U.S. the
more as a result.
Think about it Irene. You call the rescuing of innocents medieval but YOU
DO NOT CALL THE MEDIEAVAL ISLAMISTS MEDIEVAL. Why?
Lawrence
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Andy Amago
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 9:06 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The torture graph
Lawrence, your first premise concerning the Soviet Union is unsupported
emotional conjecture. As far as comparing the global problem of terrorism
to a movie with Clint Eastwood, that has a medieval ring to it. Are you
suggesting that life should imitate art, like applying the Code of Chivalry
to real life, when in fact the Code of Chivalry was an illusion, a
self-contradicting fantasy? We should model our behaviors on movies with
guaranteed good endings? I think an argument can be made that the treatment
of women by Muslim Fundamentalists is in fact the Code of Chivalry taken to
its logical conclusion. Can you clarify the thinking that is going into
your statements?
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 4/7/2006 11:12:25 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The torture graph
Eric,
Well, we are at war and Im impatient with hearing the same anti-American
plaint. After being away from the discussions for a few days and not
willing to strain my eyes unnecessarily, I merely skimmed the notes but it
was enough to see a pattern. The pattern of most of the notes was one of
hostility toward the U.S. I expect our enemies to be hostile toward us; so
it is reasonable and logical for Islamist and Islamic Fundamentalists to be
hostile toward us. It is also logical for those who supported Soviet Russia
during the cold war to be hostile toward us. Just because the USSR lost the
Cold War doesnt mean that its supporters are automatically going to fall in
love with us.
Doesnt a pattern of hostility toward the U.S. on a given matter coupled
with no hostility toward an enemy engaged in far more egregious examples of
the same matter indicate a predilection? It strikes me that it does. I
cant claim to have charted his notes, but it seems to me Omar exhibits such
a pattern. Doesnt he cherry-pick the news looking for articles especially
hostile to the United States, our military, our administration etc. One he
just referred me to compared our government and military personnel to Nazis.
What do people think when they see Dirty Harry? When I watched that movie I
saw the San Franciscan government as crippled. It wasnt equipped to deal
with the killer holding the city captive. In every case the mayor and chief
of police did what was legal and politically correct, and the killer kept on
killing. Dirty Harry did what was necessary (including some torture if I
recall correctly) to stop the killer and save as many innocent lives as
possible. Omars author would call Dirty Harry a Nazi engaged in evil, but
the people who admire Dirty Harry obviously wouldnt. They see the SF
government as coddling criminals and neglecting citizens. They admire Dirty
Harry for doing the right thing. If you were in that kind of trouble would
you want the Chief of Pol ice or Dirty Harry looking out for you? And since
you are in that kind of trouble would you prefer Al Gore or George Bush
looking out for you?
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Eric Yost
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 11:34 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The torture graph
Lawrence: No guts, no willingness to fight, too
timid by far, Osama says. And true to his
assessment we anguish over the fact that we are
human, that a small percentage (as occurs in every
fighting force) is going to misbehave. We say
never mind about the enemy, what about those of us
who misbehave? We say never mind about the people
trying to blow us up, what about the use of
excessive force in trying to find out whom our
enemy is.
Eric: People don't really think we're at war. They
think it's a bad dream that will go away if they
can only pin it all on Bush. It's a creepy kind of
nihilism, and I think it comes from the feeling of
being betrayed by the government too many times.
Remember around the time Nixon resigned, the
government WAS the enemy for many people. We
believed our own Cold War propaganda too much
perhaps, and Vietnam/Watergate showed us up as
suckers. The nihilism is also fashionable since it
gives a sort of glamor to alienation.
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