In fact that's a serious objection to the notion of "individual sacrifice." Individuals only exist by consent of the group and vice versa. To speak of irrational self-sacrifice is to view that sacrifice only from the perspective of the individual. Yet individuals do not exist by themselves, but only in the context of groups. _____ To expand on this point. In what sense is the world comprised of individuals? In what sense is the world comprised of groups? To see the full horror of trench warfare is to view millions of individuals going to their deaths because of a group allegiance. With each death, a center of the universe is destroyed, a human consciousness is quenched, a history comes to an end. Yet each of these individuals only existed in the context of a group. A thought experiment. Trench warfare at Somme. Everyone walks away. They gave a war and nobody stayed for it. So what do these individuals do? Do they return to "their countries"? And what is that? What is "their country"? These are pure individuals now; they have no group identification. What do they do? Make up their own individual language and customs and claim a twenty-foot square parcel of earth as their own individual country? That's the fallacy we are projecting here--that of isolated rational individuals who somehow can exist without a group. It's as if people's hands only had palms but no back of the hand. Doesn't exist. People are individuals-in-a-group, not pure individuals. Eric ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html