That's one of the dumbest things I've heard all month, Irene. In your fervor to blame America for everything, you keep yourself ignorant of the Islamists actions in Egypt (Qutb, executed in 1966, was the intellectual of the Muslim Brothers, the prototype Islamist organization). In Iran in 1980, Khomeini called for Jihad against Iraq which resulted in the death of 1,000,000). In Algeria in 1992 the FIS called for a Jihad that ultimately resulted in the death of 200,000). And you are overwhelmed by 10,000 who aren't even dead yet? Pshaw. Do you know that ordinary Baathist insurgents, the ones who ought to be tried with Saddam, aren't Jihadists? They are ordinary insurgents. Do you know the difference? Who in the region of Iraq would care if Iraq became a viable democracy? Do you think everyone round about is neutral about that? Maybe it won't succeed, but if it does, if Iraq becomes a viable democracy, then all the nations round about with their anti-democratic tyrannies, will feel threatened. Why will they feel threatened, Irene? Because Iraq will have moved in the direction of Liberalism. It will have made a step or two toward becoming a Liberal Democracy. The tyrannies will feel that their days are numbered, and they will be. That is why the tyrannies like Iran and Syria are encouraging troops to go across their borders to fight against democracy in Iraq. Leftists too hate democracy so they are rooting (like you are, Irene) for democracy's enemies. Do you recall what it means to be a Liberal Democracy? Any Liberal who understood what it meant to be a Liberal supported Liberal Democracy. Shoot, I believe in Liberal Democracy so that makes me a Liberal. What do you believe in Irene? You hate Liberal Democracy. You hate the idea that Iraq might become a Liberal Democracy. You support Liberal-Democracy's enemies. Iraq might fail to become a democracy, but it will have been a noble effort to have encouraged the Iraqis who wanted to make the attempt, who thought they could succeed. And if it does fail, those who hate freedom, who hate Liberal Democracy, who hate America, who supported those who undermined the Iraqi government's efforts, will be able to claim victory. You'll be able to claim victory then, Irene. But in the meantime many of us are pulling for the Iraqi government to succeed. We are attempting to get Iran and Syria to quit sending men to undermine the Iraqi-governments efforts. Of course there is no hope of shutting up the bleating, anti-American Leftists: one of the downsides of freedom. Lawrence _____ From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andy Amago Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 7:58 AM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Five Years Ago "The thing about Qutb and the suicide attacks is that he took the Jihad into new regions." No, we took Jihad into new regions. Before Iraq Jihad was something a few fanatics believed in, I forget the numbers, something like one in 10,000. After Iraq, Jihad recruitment is something like 100 out of 10,000. Still small, but still 100 times bigger, and growing. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 9/12/2006 10:37:11 AM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Five Years Ago Well, if Judy is any example, the assertion that I read only those who agree with me is morphing, and how could it not since I have on at least two occasions listed the books I have read in the past couple of years and only a small portion fit the Conservative pattern. But her qualification is that I ignore the ones who say something different. That seems to be her quaint way of saying that I dont accept everything I read, and I admit it; mea culpa. I can read both Amis and Hitchens for example, while not agreeing with their anti-Christian bias and having a severe problem with Hitchens believing he was always right even though like Horowitz he has given up positions he once held. Besides, I dont really know if someone like Amis has studied Islamism or Sayyid Qutb more than I have. I didnt really read anything new in the Amis article, but I like the way he writes. The thing about Qutb and the suicide attacks is that he took the Jihad into new regions. In the past there were only the greater and lesser jihads. The greater was very like the Christian Ephesians 6 wrestling not against flesh and blood but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. [NIV] The lesser Jihad was to be used in self-defense. As a result of Qutb the focus of the jihad has been expanded to include infidels just because they are infidels. They dont need to be attacking Muslims such that the lesser Jihad can be legitimately employed. Defense is no longer a necessary condition. It is okay to be offensive against them. Also, since Fundamentalism is a condit ion of Islamism, Muslim leaders who dont embrace Islamism are also to be treated as infidels. It is okay to assassinate them. Beyond that, Qutb who got a bit mystical while writing In the Shadow of the Koran while in an Egyptian prison saw the Jihad as the way to continue Mohammads advance. Who told Muslims they should stop where they were. Did Mohammad stop before he was dead? Certainly not. And neither should we. We should carry our Jihad into the land of the infidel and never stop until all the world has been converted to Islam. Perhaps all Islamist Muslims do not become Jihadists, but they ought to and they know they ought to. It is incumbent upon them. In the Christian milieu I grew up in, any one who wanted to be a really committed Christian considered going into the ministry or becoming a missionary -- and the bravest or most committed of the missionaries would go to deepest darkest Africa. Today the bravest might go to an Islamic nation where they regularly kill missionaries. But at the same time we all knew we could be Christians in good standing without going into the ministry or becoming missionaries. But the Muslim who accepts the teachings of Sayyid Qutb, i.e., becomes an Islamist, if he is a really committed Muslim will kill an infidel. Those who don t want to kill infidels will feel they are second-class Muslims and hope Allah will accept them into paradise despite their weakness. Before Qutb it wasnt that way. In both Christianity and Islam there are traditions that honor martyrs. The Christian has read Christ who said, unless you confess me before men, Ill not confess you before my heavenly father. Thus, a true Christian would not deny Christ even if it meant the auto de fe. A modern day Islamists may legitimately demonstrate the sincerity of his belief by killing an infidel, or if asked by a mullah or someone with Islamic authority, he (or she) will gladly accept martyrdom by becoming a suicide bomber. Lawrence