Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode

You are right, it's not a hassle at all.  people are just going to have to 
adjust to the changes.  And as always the case they can turn off the feature 
if it's not to their liking.

Rick
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Yardbird" <yardbird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode


Rick,

Thanks. It's been too long since I've seen that with my own eyes, and so I
misremembered how something like that could work. That explains everything.
I'm not sure what's so distressing about this, since I thought you could
just exit Forms Mode with a keystroke if that isn't what you wished to be
doing right then. Lord knows I endure a host of much more obnoxious
inconveniences because of other quirky things Jaws does on my system in
Version 9, and I'm still getting along okay, having learned how to cope with
those problems. This just doesn't seem like such an awful hassle. But maybe
that's just me, of course.

Thanks for correcting my inaccurate memory so that I can imagine that
flashing editing cursor again. Now I get it.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick Harmon" <rharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode


I've just verified with a sighted friend that on a page like google you are
automatically placed in the edit field so that you can begin typing.  So FS
isn't doing it wrong at all.  In fact they are just emulating sighted
behaviour.

Rick
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Toews" <Bruce@xxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode


Joel, Rick knows exactly what he's talking about, and he's dead on.


The what's new section of JAWS version 5 states, in part:

When HTML code automatically places the blinking PC Cursor (force focus)
into an edit field, JAWS also moves to the edit field. By default, JAWS
will not begin a SayAll provided you are in the default Virtual Cursor
mode. When this occurs, you will also be reminded to press ENTER for
forms mode, in order to type in information.
For an example of this, please visit: www.google.com

This is precisely what we are talking about. You go to www.google.com,
your cursor is brought to the edit field.
Bruce

On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 09:41:46 -0700, "Yardbird" <yardbird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
said:
> That's more or less what I mean, except for one thing. I repeat, I have
> no
> idea what it means to describe a Web page as having a point of focus upon
> the loading of the page. I used to see a Web page clearly, and I know
> that
> no matter whether a Web page had edit fields or not or how important they
> were to the function of the page, there wasn't anything I could discern
> as a
> "focus." The page simply appeared on the screen. And if I saw an edit
> field
> and wanted to type something in it, I simply did. But it was not as if
> something in my browser was already focused somewhere. It wasn't . There
> isn't any such thing, so far as I know. I think this is a lot more to do
> with what happens in the screen reader when the page loads. Not something
> inherent that anyone at all would be aware of, including the page
> designer.
> See what 'm saying? I don't feel as if we're talking on the same terms,
> for
> some reason. Sorry.
> desingers.describve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rick Harmon" <rharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 9:28 AM
> Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode
>
>
> No, if the primary thing you do on a page is immediately use an edit
> field
> such as in the case of google then the focus is on the edit field.  I do
> believe this to be proper design of the webpage and nothing of FS doing
> at
> all.
>
> Also it has nothing to do with web designers hijacking us jaws users at
> all.
> Most of these web page designers have no idea what jaws even is.
>
> Rick
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Yardbird" <yardbird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 12:18 PM
> Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode
>
>
> But Peter,
>
> I'm not sure from what perspective you're saying this about page design.
> When a Web page loads for a sighted user not using a screen reader, there
> is
> not a focus issue or the page capturing the mouse pointer or a cursor of
> some sort and jumping anywhere. The page simply loads, the person sees
> all
> of it, glances to where they want to look, and reads. Or, if they want to
> use an edit field, they see it and then put the mouse pointer on it. They
> aren't captured the way our Jaws focus is hijacked when a page loads and
> takes us straight to an edit field.
>
> So do you mean that Web page designers have deliberately coded something
> into edit fields in many cases that they know will attract the Jaws
> focus?
> Or is this rather something that FS designs into the way Jaws sees the
> page
> as it loads? Or some combination of these two things? See what I mean?
> designes JasewJaww
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Holdstock" <peterholdstock@xxxxxxx>
> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 9:05 AM
> Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode
>
>
> Yes you can design the web page so that it jumps the user straight to a
> field, and yes it will be because of that design as to why it happens
> with
> some sites and not with others.
>
> I think that JAWS should initially treat the edit field it first jumps to
> as
> the page loads, in the same way as it treats form fields when you use the
> quick navigation keys.
>
> Peter
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Yardbird" <yardbird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 4:20 PM
> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode
>
> > Hi Peter and all,
> >
> > It occurs to me that the reason this inconvenient forms mode thing is
> > happening when some Web pages load is that for reasons I'm not
> > sophisticated
> > enough to understand, the Jaws focus is sometimes drawn to the first
> > edit
> > field it sees as the page loads. As everyone knows, this doesn't happen
> > with
> > every page, not even a lot of pages that have search functions not far
> > from
> > the top of the page. The New York Times, for instance. When one of the
> > article pages load, Jaws leaves me at the top of the page where I can
> > hear
> > the headline of the article and the name of the paper. If I actually
> > wish
> > to
> > use the global search function to look for something I don't know where
> > to
> > find in that day's edition, I hit E or arrow down or whatever until I
> > get
> > to
> > the search form.
> >
> > But on other Web pages, Jaws jumps to a search edit field immediately,
> > bypassing text and other page elements that precede it if I arrow back
> > upward to see what's there. So it's something about this which, if it
> > didn't
> > happen that way, wouldn't trigger the auto forms mode thing that's got
> > everyone annoyed. Or almost everyone, anyway.
> >
> > If anyone knows more about page design and the coding of Jaws to confirm
> > or
> > preferably add to that admitted speculation, I'd be really interested to
> > hear something more about this. It's the technology that interests me at
> > this point, as I am not playing with the Beta and I don't feel like
> > getting
> > involved in complaining about Freedom Scientific's corporate style or
> > defending them, either.
> >
> > Thanks very much.
> > From: "Peter Holdstock" <peterholdstock@xxxxxxx>
> > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 7:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode
> >
> >
> > Yeh you do it out of habit, and then because it's already in forms mode
> > it
> > causes you to  press submit or something instead.
> >
> > As I say, I like it though, just don't want it to turn on automatically.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > From: "dave-d0619" <dave-d0619@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 2:01 AM
> > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode
> >
> >> I like that improvement, especially for sites such as Google, where you
> >> land
> >> on the search edit field after the site has loaded.
> >>
> >> Personally, I am so used to pressing ENTER to turn on Forms Mode, I
> >> would
> >> probably continue to do it out of habit and, as we all know, some
> >> habits
> >> are
> >> so hard to break or change.
> >>
> >> Sincerely:
> >>
> >> Dave Durber
> >>
> >> --
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-- 
  Bruce Toews
  dogriver@xxxxxxxx

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