(of creation impirical evidence) Really? To who's satisfaction? Certainly not mine. Could you provide me with some of these proofs? Regards, Mike. First of all as I can't mention the C word, I will put it this way. Whether by the Devil or God or by accident, Creation, something from nothing is creation. This happening, one of many, but this one well documented at the time, demonstrated creation to the satisfaction of the French Acadamy of Science, a hostile witness. (to religionn or anything supernatural) From early in the history of Lourdes, the church invited the hostile French Acadamy of Science in Paris to set up a laboratory on site at the shrine. These were encouraged to provide medical examinations of the people before they entered the water, and to check them after, if a miracle was claimed. The church authorities would not accept any evidence of a miracle at Lourdes unless it had been validated by this body. Anyway the particular case I refer to which involves creation, concerned a young 20 year old (or so) who had been shown to have no bone in the lower portion of his leg. When he came out of the water, he walked, and upon examination he was found to have a perfectly normal leg.... Now the official medical report verified the happening, with the added note that the Acadamy did not accept it as a verification of there being a God, but that there had to be some other reason...which science will one day be able to explain.....Thats fair enough. I can accept that. Who cares!, and this is my point, bone was created. It was not new bone. Any sensible analysis would have to conclude that the bone would be of a natural 20 year old. Yet it did not exist prior to the bath. Had there been no prior examination, then any claim to creation or miracle , (for those interested in miracles) could ever be established by the secondary examination....Hence my oft stated assertion that creation scientists are wasting time trying to prove the world is only 6 or 7 thousand years old. Would the records still be held in the archives in Paris, or Lourdes? I don't know. Though thousands of miracles are claimed by people, the church has never accepted any as factual that has not been verified by secular science, even today. Certainly the original testimony is recorded in many other historical records, which might be considered biased. Mike, you and I both have a free will. This athiest chose long ago to check 'em out, and much more did I find. You have the same opportunity.... Philip.