[geocentrism] Re: Climate change

Paul I would be interested to hear your view on this report?  Ja has given some 
good inputs to this debate..  

Philip. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: j a 
  To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 5:01 AM
  Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Climate change


  Paul,

  You may be interested in the following: 

  
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=c47c1209-233b-412c-b6d1-5c755457a8af

  Now that you have no true concensus, upon what will you base your belief?

  JA

  j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
    in red

    Paul Deema <paul_deema@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
      Greetings all
      Well tonight I was going to try to respond to Philip's four lengthy 
attacks of the night before last but the five (and a half) posts of last night 
have convinced me of the pointlessness of that endeavour. Clearly the efforts 
of four protagonists acting with religious zeal will always bury the voice of 
one, especially when the four just know they are right despite what the world's 
concensus of scientific thought says. Your predisposition is showing here! 
Prove the concensus! But wait, Haven't you addmitted before that concensus 
isn't proof and that you judge by the evidence????? I suggest you stop using as 
"proof" that which you have admitted isn't proof. Might is right! Yeah! [Acts 
7:57]
      Because I am not able to respond as I'd like -- you know, clear, calm 
reasoned debate And how does your above emotional & predjudicial attack on your 
opponents fall into that self description??-- I'll just try to address a few 
points.
      j a

      "I admit that, at this point in time, I am not expecting to have my view 
changed" 
      "I don't know. I didn't say I knew. I did say "...when I decide..." " 
      You seem too conflicted to discuss this! 
      But anyway - currrently the sun is hotter, other planets (without 
peolple) are currently hotter to match the suns increased output, Throughout 
time the earth has constantly gone through cooling and warming cycles, All the 
indications of man-made global warming are from computer models and my 
weatherman can barely predict next weeks weather let alone 25 years from now, 
The people pushing global warming are alarmists, The people who are pressing 
the need to curtail human activity to fix this problem are mostly liberal big 
government types and they always need a crisis. I'm sure others could expand 
this list greatly. 
      I've listed some of my reasons - Now I repeat - Please list your big 
reasons for believing. 
      Last first. I've confessed my paltry qualifications. I acknowledge others 
are smarter and more knowledgeable than I then why are you argueing against us? 
;-). It seems reasonable to accept this concensus especially since there is 
little opposition. Could you quantify this statement? There is lots of 
opposition and it should be judged on the quality of the aurgument not the 
names or number of names attached to either side. Your continued use of this is 
a sign of the superior, holier than thou attitude of an elitist! And that is 
not reasonable - except to an elitist.
      Now -- how do you know the Sun is 'hotter'? How do you know that other 
planets are hotter? How do you know that the Earth has changed its temperature 
-- warming and cooling? Surely you are not trusting all those scientists with a 
private agenda (Hi Jack!) to tell the truth? They are the ones after all who 
are responsible for spreading lies about planetary climate are they not? I have 
not challenged all of mainstream science, just the idea of man-made global 
warming, so criticising my use of evidence from MS is silly (would this be an 
example of a straw-man?). So it sounds like you are saying that you will not 
accept reports from MS that might contradict man-made global warming? Sounds 
like your mind is made-up.
      I suggest that '... [a]ll the indications of man-made global warming are 
from computer models ...' is just not true. That is were it came from! Thats 
what stated it! simple data read from indicators such as ice cores. Simple? 
This isn't a model -- it's a simple record, a lot like the marks doting parents 
make on door edges to mark the height attained by their children, usually on 
their birthdays. When they attain puberty, it's reasonable to read this record 
and conclude that each year they have grown taller, just as it is possible to 
read in ice cores that there has been an imperceptible but inexorable increase 
in CO2 for some few centuries and to observe that this just happens to coincide 
with history spanning the industrial revolution. So you are saying that the 
warming caused by the co2 has been happening for several hundered years - 
actually preceeding the industrial revolution? The increase of co2 preceeded 
it's manufacture by man??? Global warming has been happening for several 
hundered years???? What happened to the global cooling of the last century that 
ended in the 70's or 80's. What about the global cooling alarmists of the 
70's???? Are you so sure your ice cores are properly correlated to time? are 
you so sure there is no migration of co2 in ice sheets? Are you so sure that 
co2 is the cause of global warming? If the Sun is getting hotter, it will -- as 
you suggest -- cause a temperature increase, all other things being equal, but 
this is all the more reason that we should not exacerbate it. The warming/co2 
causal relationship has not been proven and your suggestion is clearly 
alarmist. I've presented you with a realistic cause for global warming with 
reports from a community you seem to have the most faith in and you simply 
dismiss the point. It is a reasonable explanation for what we see. Your mind 
must already be made up.  While I haven't seen it mentioned, ultimately the 
'greener' nuclear technology, while it does not contribute greenhouse gasses, 
it does contribute an increased heat load which will add to temperature rise 
which will evaporate more water which will raise the global temperature 
further. Everything seems to have a sting in the tail does it not? I guess we 
should ban smoking and camp fires too! And quite moving around so much, you're 
exacerbating the problem!!!
      Now when it suits the fundamentalist fraternity, the most improbable, 
ethereal coincidence is loudly touted as conclusive evidence of some fantastic 
event. Yet when sober scientists following their curiosity -- which is what 
science is all about -- come to an overwhelming concensus, these same 
fundamentalists condemn this concensus as a conspiracy. For what purpose 
beggars the imagination. Just what are the problems? How will we be harmed by a 
wiser management of our resources? While there is a decided danger if the 
scientific concensus is correct, I don't see a danger if it is not correct and 
we still implement the corrective measures being suggested. You see no danger 
in forcing people to live differently against thier will? You see no danger in 
severly limiting what allows our modern lifestyles? You see no danger at all in 
implementing severe restrictions on people?  Amos 5:13; Proverbs 13:16; 22:3
      Tell me, in your opinion, are the people plotting the path of asteroids 
and comets with a view to detecting those which might impact the Earth 
(remember that one or more of the fragments of the Shoemaker-Levy comet which 
hit Jupiter would have devastated the whole of the Earth) wasting their time 
and the contents of the public purse? What does this have to do with our 
discusion? Comets and asteroids are out there and we could certainly discuss 
the use of funds, but co2 and global warming are not linked in a causal 
relationship.
      Finally -- "I admit ..." "I don't know ...". Sorry but I don't see a 
conflict. Hints? You don't know, yet you are willing to get in line behind 
others who would force people to live & behave differently. You are even a 
spokesperson for this thing you "don't know". History is full of people like 
you. I take back calling you a Lemming, I'll have to think up something more 
appropriate and much less innocent than that.

      If you truly believe in man-made global warming that will be the disaster 
usually proposed - have you stopped driving or flying? Have you stopped using 
electricity? How far will you go to support that which you "don't know"?

      Neville J
      This is the whole issue. Global warming is the cause, increased CO2 
("greenhouse gas") is the effect.
      Also, your position regarding the correctness of the majority has been 
proven wrong to your satisfaction (though not to the satisfaction of the 
majority on this forum) before, regarding the "heretic," Galilei.
      First item first -- why does global warming show such a close correlation 
with the industrial revolution (which just coincidentally -- no connection at 
all apparently (gentle sarcasm) began an increasing and continuing conversion 
of solid and liquid carbon compounds to CO2 plus other compounds) if the latter 
is not -- at the least -- contributary to the former? And if it is all down to 
the Sun, where is the evidence that the Sun has been on an increasing energy 
output for the same period of time? Bit suspicious that!
      Second item -- I can't recall this item. It would seem that you can. Give 
me the reference and I'll confess again -- that should warm the cockels of your 
heart! Regarding the "... correctness of the majority ...", please re-read 
"Re:666" "From Paul Deema Mon May 28 14:48:56 2007".
      Re conspiracy theories -- they certainly are "... found under every rock 
... '. I Googled 'conspiracy theories' and got 1,600,000 hits and while many of 
these are people indulging their own particular brand of paranoira, many, many 
of these hits are sites devoted to listing thousands of other 'conspiracies'. 
Just how many of these should I hold to my bosom? If only there were just a 
fraction of this many hits devoted to rational opposition to the global warming 
concesus, I would be familiar with the relevant arguments, but all I seem to be 
able to find are sites which support the concept. Now you're not going to try 
to convince me that there is a conspiracy to stop them showing up I hope -- 
this isn't China yet.
      Philip M
      Concerning your concerns about water. Yes we are surrounded by it, but, 
if my memory serves me well (and I admit it doesn't always oblige) only 3% (or 
was it 7%?) is fresh. All your objections result from the fact that each year 
there are more of us. Someone needs to tell us all forcefully that we've been 
fruitful -- we've close to filled the Earth. It's time to stop already. In the 
expectation that the population will not stop expanding, we need rules. There 
are quite a few doomsday novels in the SF genre which explore these phenomena 
-- "The Death of Grass" (UK "No Blade of Grass") by John Christopher comes to 
mind. Mankind has a history of acting ugly when a basic comodity runs short. 
The idea that you are going to satisfy everyone with (impersonal) your solution 
is fanciful to say the least. But rules -- any rules -- are necessary to avoid 
a greater catastrophe. You just have to resign yourself to the idea that you 
are not going to get just what you want in the interest of the greater good.
      Time for bed.
      Paul D


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