[geocentrism] Re: Climate change
- From: "philip madsen" <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 07:39:50 +1000
Paul I would be interested to hear your view on this report? Ja has given some
good inputs to this debate..
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: j a
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 5:01 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Climate change
Paul,
You may be interested in the following:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=c47c1209-233b-412c-b6d1-5c755457a8af
Now that you have no true concensus, upon what will you base your belief?
JA
j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
in red
Paul Deema <paul_deema@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Greetings all
Well tonight I was going to try to respond to Philip's four lengthy
attacks of the night before last but the five (and a half) posts of last night
have convinced me of the pointlessness of that endeavour. Clearly the efforts
of four protagonists acting with religious zeal will always bury the voice of
one, especially when the four just know they are right despite what the world's
concensus of scientific thought says. Your predisposition is showing here!
Prove the concensus! But wait, Haven't you addmitted before that concensus
isn't proof and that you judge by the evidence????? I suggest you stop using as
"proof" that which you have admitted isn't proof. Might is right! Yeah! [Acts
7:57]
Because I am not able to respond as I'd like -- you know, clear, calm
reasoned debate And how does your above emotional & predjudicial attack on your
opponents fall into that self description??-- I'll just try to address a few
points.
j a
"I admit that, at this point in time, I am not expecting to have my view
changed"
"I don't know. I didn't say I knew. I did say "...when I decide..." "
You seem too conflicted to discuss this!
But anyway - currrently the sun is hotter, other planets (without
peolple) are currently hotter to match the suns increased output, Throughout
time the earth has constantly gone through cooling and warming cycles, All the
indications of man-made global warming are from computer models and my
weatherman can barely predict next weeks weather let alone 25 years from now,
The people pushing global warming are alarmists, The people who are pressing
the need to curtail human activity to fix this problem are mostly liberal big
government types and they always need a crisis. I'm sure others could expand
this list greatly.
I've listed some of my reasons - Now I repeat - Please list your big
reasons for believing.
Last first. I've confessed my paltry qualifications. I acknowledge others
are smarter and more knowledgeable than I then why are you argueing against us?
;-). It seems reasonable to accept this concensus especially since there is
little opposition. Could you quantify this statement? There is lots of
opposition and it should be judged on the quality of the aurgument not the
names or number of names attached to either side. Your continued use of this is
a sign of the superior, holier than thou attitude of an elitist! And that is
not reasonable - except to an elitist.
Now -- how do you know the Sun is 'hotter'? How do you know that other
planets are hotter? How do you know that the Earth has changed its temperature
-- warming and cooling? Surely you are not trusting all those scientists with a
private agenda (Hi Jack!) to tell the truth? They are the ones after all who
are responsible for spreading lies about planetary climate are they not? I have
not challenged all of mainstream science, just the idea of man-made global
warming, so criticising my use of evidence from MS is silly (would this be an
example of a straw-man?). So it sounds like you are saying that you will not
accept reports from MS that might contradict man-made global warming? Sounds
like your mind is made-up.
I suggest that '... [a]ll the indications of man-made global warming are
from computer models ...' is just not true. That is were it came from! Thats
what stated it! simple data read from indicators such as ice cores. Simple?
This isn't a model -- it's a simple record, a lot like the marks doting parents
make on door edges to mark the height attained by their children, usually on
their birthdays. When they attain puberty, it's reasonable to read this record
and conclude that each year they have grown taller, just as it is possible to
read in ice cores that there has been an imperceptible but inexorable increase
in CO2 for some few centuries and to observe that this just happens to coincide
with history spanning the industrial revolution. So you are saying that the
warming caused by the co2 has been happening for several hundered years -
actually preceeding the industrial revolution? The increase of co2 preceeded
it's manufacture by man??? Global warming has been happening for several
hundered years???? What happened to the global cooling of the last century that
ended in the 70's or 80's. What about the global cooling alarmists of the
70's???? Are you so sure your ice cores are properly correlated to time? are
you so sure there is no migration of co2 in ice sheets? Are you so sure that
co2 is the cause of global warming? If the Sun is getting hotter, it will -- as
you suggest -- cause a temperature increase, all other things being equal, but
this is all the more reason that we should not exacerbate it. The warming/co2
causal relationship has not been proven and your suggestion is clearly
alarmist. I've presented you with a realistic cause for global warming with
reports from a community you seem to have the most faith in and you simply
dismiss the point. It is a reasonable explanation for what we see. Your mind
must already be made up. While I haven't seen it mentioned, ultimately the
'greener' nuclear technology, while it does not contribute greenhouse gasses,
it does contribute an increased heat load which will add to temperature rise
which will evaporate more water which will raise the global temperature
further. Everything seems to have a sting in the tail does it not? I guess we
should ban smoking and camp fires too! And quite moving around so much, you're
exacerbating the problem!!!
Now when it suits the fundamentalist fraternity, the most improbable,
ethereal coincidence is loudly touted as conclusive evidence of some fantastic
event. Yet when sober scientists following their curiosity -- which is what
science is all about -- come to an overwhelming concensus, these same
fundamentalists condemn this concensus as a conspiracy. For what purpose
beggars the imagination. Just what are the problems? How will we be harmed by a
wiser management of our resources? While there is a decided danger if the
scientific concensus is correct, I don't see a danger if it is not correct and
we still implement the corrective measures being suggested. You see no danger
in forcing people to live differently against thier will? You see no danger in
severly limiting what allows our modern lifestyles? You see no danger at all in
implementing severe restrictions on people? Amos 5:13; Proverbs 13:16; 22:3
Tell me, in your opinion, are the people plotting the path of asteroids
and comets with a view to detecting those which might impact the Earth
(remember that one or more of the fragments of the Shoemaker-Levy comet which
hit Jupiter would have devastated the whole of the Earth) wasting their time
and the contents of the public purse? What does this have to do with our
discusion? Comets and asteroids are out there and we could certainly discuss
the use of funds, but co2 and global warming are not linked in a causal
relationship.
Finally -- "I admit ..." "I don't know ...". Sorry but I don't see a
conflict. Hints? You don't know, yet you are willing to get in line behind
others who would force people to live & behave differently. You are even a
spokesperson for this thing you "don't know". History is full of people like
you. I take back calling you a Lemming, I'll have to think up something more
appropriate and much less innocent than that.
If you truly believe in man-made global warming that will be the disaster
usually proposed - have you stopped driving or flying? Have you stopped using
electricity? How far will you go to support that which you "don't know"?
Neville J
This is the whole issue. Global warming is the cause, increased CO2
("greenhouse gas") is the effect.
Also, your position regarding the correctness of the majority has been
proven wrong to your satisfaction (though not to the satisfaction of the
majority on this forum) before, regarding the "heretic," Galilei.
First item first -- why does global warming show such a close correlation
with the industrial revolution (which just coincidentally -- no connection at
all apparently (gentle sarcasm) began an increasing and continuing conversion
of solid and liquid carbon compounds to CO2 plus other compounds) if the latter
is not -- at the least -- contributary to the former? And if it is all down to
the Sun, where is the evidence that the Sun has been on an increasing energy
output for the same period of time? Bit suspicious that!
Second item -- I can't recall this item. It would seem that you can. Give
me the reference and I'll confess again -- that should warm the cockels of your
heart! Regarding the "... correctness of the majority ...", please re-read
"Re:666" "From Paul Deema Mon May 28 14:48:56 2007".
Re conspiracy theories -- they certainly are "... found under every rock
... '. I Googled 'conspiracy theories' and got 1,600,000 hits and while many of
these are people indulging their own particular brand of paranoira, many, many
of these hits are sites devoted to listing thousands of other 'conspiracies'.
Just how many of these should I hold to my bosom? If only there were just a
fraction of this many hits devoted to rational opposition to the global warming
concesus, I would be familiar with the relevant arguments, but all I seem to be
able to find are sites which support the concept. Now you're not going to try
to convince me that there is a conspiracy to stop them showing up I hope --
this isn't China yet.
Philip M
Concerning your concerns about water. Yes we are surrounded by it, but,
if my memory serves me well (and I admit it doesn't always oblige) only 3% (or
was it 7%?) is fresh. All your objections result from the fact that each year
there are more of us. Someone needs to tell us all forcefully that we've been
fruitful -- we've close to filled the Earth. It's time to stop already. In the
expectation that the population will not stop expanding, we need rules. There
are quite a few doomsday novels in the SF genre which explore these phenomena
-- "The Death of Grass" (UK "No Blade of Grass") by John Christopher comes to
mind. Mankind has a history of acting ugly when a basic comodity runs short.
The idea that you are going to satisfy everyone with (impersonal) your solution
is fanciful to say the least. But rules -- any rules -- are necessary to avoid
a greater catastrophe. You just have to resign yourself to the idea that you
are not going to get just what you want in the interest of the greater good.
Time for bed.
Paul D
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