[geocentrism] Re: 666
- From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 16:44:22 -0700 (PDT)
Me in blue
You astound me on the one hand with your eloquence and on the other you
"gift" for your lack of understanding and missing any and all verbatim
correlation(s) "Trample via gentiles" "the city"within the relevant text as
well as the context as a whole itself....you seem to piecemeal Revelation
Daniel and Jesus as all separate not related topics and text in sipte of their
specific referenced staments ...see previous?
"Martin G. Selbrede" <mselbrede@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
this assumes you already have a certain degree of understanding
I understand enough to know that when John writes "arithmon tou theriou,
arithmos gar anthropou estin" that the beast's number is the number of a man --
the key to knowing the identification of the number. At no point in your
analysis do you show a correlation between a man and the number 666, let alone
a point in Scripture where 666 is associated with a man's name.
How can you make any corelation if you dont know how and what to count? You
want to count things that have absolulty nothing to do with any of the context
particulary the context of what is taking place in revelation by the beast
there as well as Jesus remarks and Daniles visons in spite of the verbatium
corelattions in thier speech that tie all those together..no need for
interpritaion. verbatium staments you did not read very carfully what i sent
you priviously particularly the slide that covers Rev ch 11,12 & 13 with Luke
21 or Danile . Agin ther is only one other place in scripture where a man is
reconed as a beast and "ironicaly", toung in cheek, it outlines the same events
in contexts in relation to Jeruselem the saints and the Kingdom of God how
those will unfold.......?????
The question has nothing to do with the "children" of Adonikam, solely with
the name "Adonikam." There is NO other verse in scripture that associates an
"arithmos anthropou" with the number 666. This text fits the requirement.
Moreover, you're importing alien meaning into the verb "psephisatou," as if
totaling up years (!) makes some kind of point (it doesn't). I am not
importing any verbiage. Again you miss the whole "what to count thing" which is
necessary before any verbiage or method can be applied to the count. Knowing
the "what" tells you the "how". Knowing the context and events correlated to
the rest of Jesus remarks tells you the "what" you are looking at or to look
for before you can ascribe any method to any kind of count. The method you
argue is nowhere to be found in GREEK or English either it is even more
"presumed" because it has no bases in subject or object of the context for
counting which is identified by the context and surrounding events as well a
the only Beast reckoned as man found anywhere in scripture. In short you have
it all backwards you want to identify the "how" before you identify the "what",
as a result your position has no bases of any kind without assuming it
is true first and ignoring the subject of the context.
You've imposed that meaning from outside the text, and have not extracted it
from what John actually is saying. The adjective "anthropou" is genitive: the
number is a man's number, a number pertaining to a specific man, not a span of
time, which would require a neuter nominative to have any possible validity.
John's text obliterates that option on the face of it. Not to mention that 666
years is vastly longer than any single man's life span, not the life span of
the only man found anywhere in scripture that is also reconed as a beast (
Daniel ch 2 & 7).........which is logically inconsistent with John's statement
as well as being barred from consideration grammatically.
gramaiticly?...You dont even grasp the context of what is going on and you
want to understand it how..? The meaing is generated from the context of not
your "over cooking" of "Greek gramer"? I fyou cant grasp siple corelation in
english you should not attempt to grasp this in greek unless greek was you
first language. It has the same meaning in english sorry if your greek
instructor told you otherwise and the vase majority, the hundreds of
translators and scholors over the last 300 or so years support me in this
assertion. You like many others attempt to go to the greek to undersand
somthing when you can't even understand it in your own language yet you pretend
to understand it better in Greek gramer!? give me a break........
The Powerpoint presentation labors under the assumption that putting 666years
[sic -- word space omitted in original] in large red letters lends it
interpretational authority. I call it "the old debater's trick" -- namely,
"when your case is weak, pound the podium and shout."
No just pointing out what you and other keep missing.......The fact that
the text outlines specifically 70 years of desolations via Jeriamiah 36 years
for Persian kings to the building of the street and wall verbatim if you had
read it and 490 years to Christ Daniel Ch 9 further, 70 years to the
Abomination of desolation...... total 666 years if you had understding and
wisom you would count what the text outlines not what it dose not
outline...........The only thing found in scripture anywhere that is referred
to both as a man and as a beast "Mystery Babylon" which was given by vison to
both Nebucharnezar as well as Daniel once as a man the other time as a beast.
The case is air tight not sure how you think some other Beast and man is being
referred to there when Revelation is specially referring to the same thing that
Daniel & Jesus are referring to Trampling of the city by the Feet of the "Man"
and the ten horns of the "beast" if you have wisdom then count that
.....by the way Year zero has nothing to do with those calculations......
Jesus says "the Scripture cannot be broken." The efforts to railroad Rev.
13:18 into something other than what it explicitly says, in its own inspired
words, is a sad misfire.
To reiterate: the Old Testament knows A LOT about counting. Both David and
Moses numbered Israel, as did Ezra, and St. John uses Ezra's format for the
census in Revelation 7. We even know the result of the numbering of Abraham:
318. There's no Biblical mystery here -- people are just intent on creating
mystery where there isn't any. Talk about correlations, is it raw coincidence
that the one time in the Old Testament where the numbering of the people links
the name Adonikman with 666, that the actual name Adonikam fits the description
of John's beast rising from the sea in grammatical detail? "Rising up" is a
VERY rare word stem for proper names in Hebrew, and it's not a very common verb
either. The odds of these disparate details matching by chance are immense.
I've not touched on my views of the various beasts of Daniel, or the statue
of Nebuchadnezzar, or the details concerning the seven-headed beast beast of
Revelation 13 beyond the scope of the 18th verse. Do not assume what my views
might be concerning these other issues. What John says at 13:18 has to be taken
seriously, as written, because "the scripture cannot be broken" and because
"the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets." The verse isn't a
starting pistol signaling a race to amass wild speculations as fast as they
come to us, particularly with convoluted appeals to other scriptures justified
on esoteric grounds.
In short: a legitimate, genuine search of the Scriptures always brings us
back to Ezra 2:13 if we're interested in 666. Rejection of this option, in the
face of all its strengths, is mere impatience with John and misplaced zeal for
human theorizing and wrestling of John's statements into preconceived ideas
erected (quite dubiously) on purported biblical foundations that, on
examination, don't bear the weight they're supposed to support. So far as what
the Powerpoint presentation teaches: where it is correct, it doesn't bear on
the question, and where it bears on the question, it isn't correct. I'm
saddened by this, because it appears the author may be taking a different tack
from most "prophecy teachers" in focusing on historic circumstances, and if
this is so, I'd be sympathetic with his efforts. But the presentation is so
convoluted, and his point so obscured (he never makes his case clearly), that
it's hard to tell. With Paul, I'd have to charitably say that "I bear
witness that he has a zeal for God, but it is not after knowledge."
The citation of Jeremiah 31:27 makes no sense.
I can see how it makes no sens to you, you seem to ignore the context
altogether and or correlate it with anything else in the same chapter.. I
would suggest you study Jeremiah 31 particularly in the context of verse 15 &27
& 31-35 and how it relates to the "New covenant" and how the consummation of
the covenant Daniel Ch9 ( 70 weeks ) relates to Christ & destruction of
Jerusalem Luke 21 and how that relate to Christ revelation ch 11 12 & 13 ...?
The verse itself says God will do the sowing, GOD did do the sowing Just as
in Daniel Ch 9 it is Christ who is Pouring out the desolations via the
prince...... and it refers to His restoring children to both the men and
animals in the Hebrew republic, because (as the next verse, 31:28, teaches) God
is no longer plucking, breaking, and throwing down, but will now build and
plant. The prophecy of the New Covenant in Christ (see Hebrews 8) follows at
verse 31, indicating the applies to the period leading up to Christ's birth.
No, you miss it again there is only one new covenant Jesus institutes it at the
last supper not before he is born!........this is refereing to the same time
frame Daniel is "in days of these kings" in which "the God of Heaven will set
up a Kingdom" which is what Jesus came to preach about.. you miss the whole
thing In NO WAY can verse 27 be construed as teaching that God is sowing man
and beast together into some kind of composite thing (something He
elsewhere calls an abomination). Of course, there are bibliographic sources
for THAT idea: I refer the reader to David Seltzer's novelization of the movie
"The Omen," where such things are "documented." The fact that this book is a
work of fiction doesn't seem to dissuade some from adopting its position
vis-a-vis end times. 'Tis a pity.
But I need to let the other shoe drop. I see lots of arbitrary manipulation
(highly dubious!) in the chart in the Powerpoint slide. The 36 years he inserts
makes no sense based on the reckoning of Dan. 9:24 (why he even cites the verse
as if it supported this insertion, I can't even guess -- it's a blatant error).
But let's consider this more damning circumstance: July 596 BC to July 70 AD --
how many years is that? The Powerpoint slide calculates this to be 666 years.
UMM...Interesting, the BIBlE text if you would have read it or my slide ,
outlines 36 years "verbatium" not arbitray Allen...... re read the slide the
bible text outlines the exact number of years reread Danile ch 9 70 weeks and
what it was to corelate too.
This is completely wrong: there is no Year Zero. I never said there was nor
is that computated as such what are you talking about?..... This is a common
mistake made by folks who don't understand calendars. This is the kind of trick
question that Martin Gardner proposed long ago to snag the ignorant and
unsuspecting: Demetrius was born in January 30 BC and died January 30 AD....
how old was he went he died? Correct answer: 59. Lots of people lost bets (and,
I suspect, beers) on this one. Twelve months after January 1 BC comes January 1
AD. Not twenty four months. So, we have a big whopping DISPROOF of the thesis
of the author: the years total 665, not 666. Total self-inflicted implosion of
the proof. "Let him who hath understanding reckon the number..." Apparently,
understanding of calendars was included here. We have the same problem with
the well-intentioned (but still erroneous) attempt to make Nero be the Beast of
Revelation, on the claim that the sum of the Hebrew
letters of his name totals 666. It does not: it totals 676. The 666 is
obtained by misspelling Nero Kesar by omitting the letter yod. In other words,
people make blatant mistakes and errors and they pass into print as if they
were apodictic truths. But they don't survive even cursory examination.
So, we see goofs big and small. See, this is why Paul said to show ourselves
workmen approved, not ashamed. This Powerpoint slide is in the latter category
-- woefully uninformed scholarship going under the name "biblical." It's a
grievous thing.
Your whole un-analysis miss context as well as the specific reference made
by Jesus Christ both in his ministry as well as his revelation..my "analysis"
as you refer to it points out Veratrum stamens in context not sure what you
call scholarship...?
I ll be happy to take you point by point if you like. However, the lack of
understanding is woefully yours and I challenge you or anyone else to engage
this with me.....i cnat give you everything here but I'll give a little more to
chew on to see if it helps especialy with the 36 years they are not
arbitray!...... see also attached..
Botom line I have already shown direct corelations to and in the text, if you
read, to staments of Daniel Jesus and Revelation "verbatium" Genitles" and
"trampiling of the city" all you are offering is wild speculation about things
that have nothing to do nor are found anywhere in the text in rev 13 about 666
. If you cant accept the direct & specific reference(s) by Jesus himself LUke
21 "Time of Gentiles city trampled"... what makes you go after and accept vauge
assertions about ezra...?
time of gentiles = city destruction trampiling = 42 months =1260 days= end of
times time and half a time= 70 weeks time/ 62&7 weeks times/ half a time or
half of one week= 42 months 3. 5 years city trampled= Rev ch 11, 12 &13 ...what
do you not understand?
allen
PS you are disscussing these matters with "the author"..I have already
debated these things before but this is productive here as well.
Martin
Other related posts:
