[THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing
- From: "Alexander Danilychev" <teknica@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:25:31 -0800
I agree. My personal preference for VMware is development and prototyping.
My performance experience with VMware -- 20% loss (I have noticed Ron quoted
2%).
True, VMware environment is more forgiving, however it cannot supplement a
sloppy system management -- nicely tuned physical box is the way to go. And
again, as Ron had mentioned, patch management and application rollout tools
are not a problem at all.
There is another case when I would consider VMware for production -- remote
sites (really remote). With VMware you will get a very well integrated
solution with minimum of additional tools required for management.
VMware can be used for hot spares (this is hypothetical, based on VMware
whitepapers ;)
Imagine you have a bunch of servers that you have imaged to VMware (VMware
has a migration tool for physical hardware). I am talking about as many
images as VMware box (single box or a few VMware boxes) can accommodate on
it?s hard drives. And all these systems are in a suspended state. (For the
argument sake, we are assuming the data is somewhere else ;)
Now, let's say server ABC goes down -- you will be able to jumpstart this
server in it?s VMware incarnation in under 2 minutes with a remotely
triggered script, and users will hardly notice. And you can do it for every
server that you emulated on VMware; assuming of course, majority (99%) of
your servers are running.
PS. Just a note: VMware availability numbers are excellent!
ALEX
>From: "Ron Oglesby" <roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Reply-To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing
>Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:34:11 -0600
>
>Just a note on this=20
> >eDirectory and Zen works will be integrated into the farm as well so I
>=3D can use Zen for the scripted build side of things.
>
>Why? If you are talking about the BASE Citrix OSs. I mean VMware can use
>what they call "Golden masters" really images and its s simple file copy
>to bring up a new VM server. Hardware is not an issue so its no big deal
>at all (like when using real hardware you script installs to handle
>that.
>
>That is unless you are talking of application deployment. Then it can be
>a different story. Of course I generally see ZEN as a problem for app
>deployment on terminal servers since it is geared toward a single user
>desktop and not a multi user server.
>
>ANYWAY, My 2 cents, dump them if you want
>
>First Cent: Take a LONG HARD look from a cost benefit perspective if
>VMware is going to save you any money here or if it is being done
>because "we think it will save money and is cool".=20
>I have done two looks at this for large farms and on the primary silo
>side of things it almost never adds up to save any money (remember
>VMWare, makes use of all hardware for under utilized servers, or test
>environment etc. When you run the servers at 90 or 100% and are
>processor /memory bound you are still paying a 2-3% penalty using ESX
>and adding a substantial cost in dollars per processor. If you are
>having to factor in DR as in a real hot site then VMware still doesn't
>factor in to save money since you have to buy and maintain that hardware
>anyway. Its not like in that case you are porting to unknown hardware.
>
>Second Cent: The real problem with a huge farm (100s of thousands of
>users would be the largest farm in the world, and Citrix ,at the current
>FR level, doesn't want you to go too much beyond 400 servers in a farm).
>Anyway the huge farm problem is NOT OS deployment or hardware its Too
>many silos, Patch management, monitoring and application
>deployment/updates.=20
>In the project we are working on now (900 server environment split
>between datacenters) Automated installs are easy (for sure with HP and
>RDP). It's the whole life patch management and application deployment.=20
>If App deployment is something you need to look at (and I think it is)
>you should try out softricity and see what it gets you.=20
>
>Just some thoughts. I am not against VMware I just hate to see people ad
>another layer of complexity and cost just because they get an idea that
>they have too for DR or any other reason.
>
>Ron Oglesby
>Senior Technical Architect
>Microsoft MVP, Windows Server=20
>=20
>RapidApp
>Office 312.372.7188
>Mobile 815.325.7618
>email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>=20
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tony Lyne [mailto:Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=20
>Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 3:08 PM
>To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing
>
>Well it sounds like ESX is the way to go then for this client. I will =
>=3D
>get hold of a copy and look at scripting options with it for deployment.
>
>I do have to scope this farm to expand, as they intend on making the =3D
>farm available to possibly 100s of thousands of users globally in the =
>=3D
>long term. The farm will span Australia and NZ as well.
>
>eDirectory and Zen works will be integrated into the farm as well so I =
>=3D
>can use Zen for the scripted build side of things.
>
>Tony Lyne
>Senior Systems Engineer=3D20
>Computerland Central=3D20
>P O Box 1470=3D20
>PALMERSTON NORTH
>Telephone (+64) 06 3537300
>Facsimile (+64) 06 3566800
>Mobile (+64) 0274 720696
>E-mail Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Internet http://www.computerland.co.nz
>CAUTION: This e-mail message and accompanying data may contain =3D
>information that is confidential and subject to privilege. If you are =
>=3D
>not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, =3D
>dissemination, distribution or copying of this message or data is =3D
>prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify me
>=3D
>immediately and delete all material pertaining to this e-mail. Thank =3D
>you.
>=3DA0
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Steve Greenberg [mailto:steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D20
>Sent: Monday, 23 February 2004 8:44 a.m.
>To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing
>
>
>On very similar hardware we have a client running four virtual machines
>=3D
>=3D3D
>and
>there is plenty of resources still available. It is going to depend =
>=3D3D
>entirely
>on the load you require, but for non-resource intensive applications 10
>=3D
>=3D3D
>or
>15 machines is quite possible. Keep in mind that you will not gain
>performance as a whole, you will just have the ability to divide the
>resource up into multiple servers. This is based on using ESX server, on
>=3D
>=3D3D
>GSX
>you should expect lower overall performance on the virtual machines.
>
>I see the benefit as being able to host multiple functions on the same
>hardware. The customer we are working on this has a low Citrix user =
>=3D3D
>count,
>but does not want to have to buy hardware for a dedicated data =3D3D
>collector,
>web server and other light duty functions unrelated to Citrix that they.
>=3D
>=3D3D
>As
>a result, they run two ESX servers, maintain a redundant Citrix farm =
>=3D3D
>with a
>dedicated data collector, and, have resources available for other =3D3D
>servers
>that they would otherwise need to buy and dedicate hardware for.
>
>Regards,
>
>Steve Greenberg
>Thin Client Computing
>34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453
>Scottsdale, AZ 85262
>(602) 432-8649
>(602) 296-0411 fax=3D3D20
>steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On =
>=3D
>=3D3D
>Behalf
>Of Tony Lyne
>Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 1:04 PM
>To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [THIN] VMWare Server Sizing
>
>
>Guys,
>=3D3D20
>
>Im in the middle of designing a Citrix farm for a client and it seems =
>=3D
>=3D3D
>the
>VMWare subject has been thrashed around here quite a bit. But one thing
>=3D
>=3D3D
>I
>can find is the number is VMware sessions that should be run per server
>before serious performance issues are hit.
>
>=3D3D20
>
>The farm will be running Linux then Vmware on that which will be =3D3D
>launching
>multiple VMWare Win2k3 server sessions with MFXPa/e.=3D3D20
>
>=3D3D20
>
>If they will only be doing the basic work like MS Office and other =3D3D
>office
>applications, typically from experience how many VMware sessions would
>people expect to get per server before they notices a performance hit?
>
>=3D3D20
>
>The server kit will be DL360G3's with 4GB RAM and mirrored disks.
>
>=3D3D20
>
>I was expecting to start with each server running 2 VMware sessions each
>=3D
>=3D3D
>and
>see how that goes.
>
>There will most likely be vertical application servers as well.
>
>=3D3D20
>
>Tony Lyne
>
>Senior Systems Engineer=3D3D20
>
>Computerland Central=3D3D20
>
>P O Box 1470=3D3D20
>
>PALMERSTON NORTH
>
>Telephone (+64) 06 3537300
>
>Facsimile (+64) 06 3566800
>
>Mobile (+64) 0274 720696
>
>E-mail Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>Internet http://www.computerland.co.nz =3D
><http://www.computerland.co.nz/>=3D3D20
>
>CAUTION: This e-mail message and accompanying data may contain =3D3D
>information
>that is confidential and subject to privilege. If you are not the =3D3D
>intended
>recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or
>copying of this message or data is prohibited. If you have received this
>e-mail in error, please notify me immediately and delete all material
>pertaining to this e-mail. Thank you.
>
>=3D3D20
>
>=3D3D20
>
>=3D3D20
>
>=3D3D20
>
>
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