Ron,=20 For the large implementations you are discussing you probably will = always end up choosing the raw performance of dedicated servers over the consolidation benefits of VMWare ESX. I believe that the vast majority = of Citrix implementations are pretty small though, i.e. 1-10 servers, and = often under-utilized from a hardware and raw performance point of view. For = these types of installations there are powerful benefits available from Vmware that simply cannot be matched with conventional hardware servers.=20 On my last project, I created Windows 2000 images with all of the image applications and registry settings, etc. that are needed. We used = Softricity and made the SoftGrid client part of the base install. To create a new server instead of sysprep and Ghost, etc. we simply have a master VMWare file that is renamed, booted and then Metaframe is installed. With a few points and clicks a new servers is available and part of the farm. On = two hardware servers we can run a modest Citrix farm, with a dedicated data collector/control server, and as many app servers as we choose. In = addition, the client is running a number of other light duty servers on the same hardware. The customer keeps some hardware and backup disk images off = site and can bring up the entire farm in minutes after a complete data center failure. (The network re-creation takes a few hours). I agree that this model fails when large numbers of users and raw performance is at a premium, however, I think there is a lot to be said = for adopting this approach and for moving forward with something that = because it is cool, makes sense and allows the client to move in a new direction!=20 Steve Greenberg Thin Client Computing 34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453 Scottsdale, AZ 85262 (602) 432-8649 (602) 296-0411 fax=20 steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On = Behalf Of Ron Oglesby Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 7:34 PM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing Just a note on this=3D20 >eDirectory and Zen works will be integrated into the farm as well so I =3D3D can use Zen for the scripted build side of things. Why? If you are talking about the BASE Citrix OSs. I mean VMware can use what they call "Golden masters" really images and its s simple file copy = to bring up a new VM server. Hardware is not an issue so its no big deal at = all (like when using real hardware you script installs to handle that. That is unless you are talking of application deployment. Then it can be = a different story. Of course I generally see ZEN as a problem for app deployment on terminal servers since it is geared toward a single user desktop and not a multi user server. ANYWAY, My 2 cents, dump them if you want First Cent: Take a LONG HARD look from a cost benefit perspective if = VMware is going to save you any money here or if it is being done because "we = think it will save money and is cool".=3D20 I have done two looks at this for = large farms and on the primary silo side of things it almost never adds up to = save any money (remember VMWare, makes use of all hardware for under utilized servers, or test environment etc. When you run the servers at 90 or 100% = and are processor /memory bound you are still paying a 2-3% penalty using = ESX and adding a substantial cost in dollars per processor. If you are = having to factor in DR as in a real hot site then VMware still doesn't factor = in to save money since you have to buy and maintain that hardware anyway. Its = not like in that case you are porting to unknown hardware. Second Cent: The real problem with a huge farm (100s of thousands of = users would be the largest farm in the world, and Citrix ,at the current FR = level, doesn't want you to go too much beyond 400 servers in a farm). Anyway = the huge farm problem is NOT OS deployment or hardware its Too many silos, = Patch management, monitoring and application deployment/updates.=3D20 In the = project we are working on now (900 server environment split between datacenters) Automated installs are easy (for sure with HP and RDP). It's the whole = life patch management and application deployment.=3D20 If App deployment is something you need to look at (and I think it is) you should try out softricity and see what it gets you.=3D20 Just some thoughts. I am not against VMware I just hate to see people ad another layer of complexity and cost just because they get an idea that = they have too for DR or any other reason. Ron Oglesby Senior Technical Architect Microsoft MVP, Windows Server=3D20 =3D20 RapidApp Office 312.372.7188 Mobile 815.325.7618 email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx =3D20 -----Original Message----- From: Tony Lyne [mailto:Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D20 Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 3:08 PM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing Well it sounds like ESX is the way to go then for this client. I will = =3D =3D3D get hold of a copy and look at scripting options with it for deployment. I do have to scope this farm to expand, as they intend on making the = =3D3D farm available to possibly 100s of thousands of users globally in the = =3D =3D3D long term. The farm will span Australia and NZ as well. eDirectory and Zen works will be integrated into the farm as well so I = =3D =3D3D can use Zen for the scripted build side of things. Tony Lyne Senior Systems Engineer=3D3D20 Computerland Central=3D3D20 P O Box 1470=3D3D20 PALMERSTON NORTH Telephone (+64) 06 3537300 Facsimile (+64) 06 3566800 Mobile (+64) 0274 720696 E-mail Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Internet http://www.computerland.co.nz CAUTION: This e-mail message and accompanying data may contain =3D3D information that is confidential and subject to privilege. If you are = =3D =3D3D not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, =3D3D dissemination, distribution or copying of this message or data is =3D3D prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify me = =3D3D immediately and delete all material pertaining to this e-mail. Thank = =3D3D you. =3D3DA0 -----Original Message----- From: Steve Greenberg [mailto:steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D3D20 Sent: Monday, 23 February 2004 8:44 a.m. To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare Server Sizing On very similar hardware we have a client running four virtual machines = =3D3D =3D3D3D and there is plenty of resources still available. It is going to depend =3D =3D3D3D entirely on the load you require, but for = non-resource intensive applications 10 =3D3D =3D3D3D or 15 machines is quite = possible. Keep in mind that you will not gain performance as a whole, you will just = have the ability to divide the resource up into multiple servers. This is = based on using ESX server, on =3D3D =3D3D3D GSX you should expect lower = overall performance on the virtual machines. I see the benefit as being able to host multiple functions on the same hardware. The customer we are working on this has a low Citrix user =3D = =3D3D3D count, but does not want to have to buy hardware for a dedicated data = =3D3D3D collector, web server and other light duty functions unrelated to Citrix that they. =3D3D =3D3D3D As a result, they run two ESX servers, maintain = a redundant Citrix farm =3D =3D3D3D with a dedicated data collector, and, = have resources available for other =3D3D3D servers that they would otherwise = need to buy and dedicate hardware for. Regards, Steve Greenberg Thin Client Computing 34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453 Scottsdale, AZ 85262 (602) 432-8649 (602) 296-0411 fax=3D3D3D20 steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D Behalf Of Tony Lyne Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 1:04 PM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] VMWare Server Sizing Guys, =3D3D3D20 Im in the middle of designing a Citrix farm for a client and it seems = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D the VMWare subject has been thrashed around here quite a bit. = But one thing =3D3D =3D3D3D I can find is the number is VMware sessions that = should be run per server before serious performance issues are hit. =3D3D3D20 The farm will be running Linux then Vmware on that which will be =3D3D3D launching multiple VMWare Win2k3 server sessions with MFXPa/e.=3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D20 If they will only be doing the basic work like MS Office and other = =3D3D3D office applications, typically from experience how many VMware sessions would people expect to get per server before they notices a performance = hit? =3D3D3D20 The server kit will be DL360G3's with 4GB RAM and mirrored disks. =3D3D3D20 I was expecting to start with each server running 2 VMware sessions each = =3D3D =3D3D3D and see how that goes. There will most likely be vertical application servers as well. =3D3D3D20 Tony Lyne Senior Systems Engineer=3D3D3D20 Computerland Central=3D3D3D20 P O Box 1470=3D3D3D20 PALMERSTON NORTH Telephone (+64) 06 3537300 Facsimile (+64) 06 3566800 Mobile (+64) 0274 720696 E-mail Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Internet http://www.computerland.co.nz =3D3D <http://www.computerland.co.nz/>=3D3D3D20 CAUTION: This e-mail message and accompanying data may contain =3D3D3D information that is confidential and subject to privilege. If you are = not the =3D3D3D intended recipient, you are notified that any use, = dissemination, distribution or copying of this message or data is prohibited. If you = have received this e-mail in error, please notify me immediately and delete = all material pertaining to this e-mail. 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