While T-Scale does do wonders on that normally, it wouldn't be able to do optimize this - SoftGrid has to operate that way to build the sandbox. Oh well! Timothy R. Mangan - Founder, TMurgent Technologies tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx www.tmurgent.com (+1)781.492.0403 -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bernd Harzog Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:16 PM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX If that is the issue, then that is precisely the problem that the basic VM Capacity Optimization in TScale addresses. Ron, maybe you should give it a try. Bernd Harzog CEO RTO Software, Inc. bernd.harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx 678-455-5506 x701 www.rtosoft.com -----Original Message----- From: Timothy Mangan [mailto:tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 12:20 PM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX Have you looked at paging? You should have some decent amount of "copy-on-write" pages being written to during that time period. Perhaps VMWare doesn't play nice on that. Timothy R. Mangan - Founder, TMurgent Technologies tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx www.tmurgent.com (+1)781.492.0403 -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ron Oglesby Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 11:36 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX Yeah this is not the authentication /cvers check etc. (besides with 3.0 you shouldn't be able to tell local from softgrid) anyway this is launch word-Word opens- Sfttray say word loaded- type in word nothing happens-3 or so seconds later everything works fine and it catches up. Ron Oglesby Senior Technical Architect RapidApp Office 312.372.7188 Mobile 815.325.7618 email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: Steve Greenberg [mailto:steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 10:29 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX I tend to notice a couple of seconds of delay using SoftGrid in general, do you think this pause of over and above the standard overhead of SoftGrid, i.e. is this delay something you do not see on a workstation running SoftGrid? Steve Greenberg Thin Client Computing 34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453 Scottsdale, AZ 85262 (602) 432-8649 (602) 296-0411 fax steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:23 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX Pauses are with the app fully cached. And only after the launch of the app for a couple of seconds. We cant tell if it is softgrid 3 or VMw yet. "SEEMS LIKE" something is waking up or waiting to wake up cuz then the apps is fine after a few seconds. Close the app make sure there is no activity on the MF server for a couple of mins then try again and you get the same thing. Ron Oglesby Senior Technical Architect RapidApp Office 312.372.7188 Mobile 815.325.7618 email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: Timothy Mangan [mailto:tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:40 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX Yeah. I have seen cases of things like 16-bit apps eating up too much CPU and starving the cache. Filling the cache or controlling the 16-bit apps takes care of that. Timothy R. Mangan - Founder, TMurgent Technologies tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx www.tmurgent.com (+1)781.492.0403 -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Greenberg Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 10:24 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX Tim, That does raise an important question about whether the apps or fully cached or still streaming at the point that these pauses occurr.... Steve Greenberg Thin Client Computing 34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453 Scottsdale, AZ 85262 (602) 432-8649 (602) 296-0411 fax steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Timothy Mangan Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:22 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX Ron, Likely file system driver. Can't let anything get in the way of filling the cache. Split the problem by testing disconnected mode. Timothy R. Mangan - Founder, TMurgent Technologies tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx www.tmurgent.com (+1)781.492.0403 -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ron Oglesby Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:52 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX Ahh so we are on the same page. Cool. AS for softgrid on VM (two pieces of new technology at once). We have it in a lab but that is all. MF FR3, on 2k3, running the Softgrid client in VM, hell even the softgrid server is a vm. My partner has it at his house right now! On a dual with 3 gb of ram. Seems OK, we are trying to work out where some pauses in the system come from now. Ron Oglesby Senior Technical Architect RapidApp Office 312.372.7188 Mobile 815.325.7618 email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: Steve Greenberg [mailto:steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:41 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX Ron, That is a very worthwhile clarification- I did not mean to suggest that one should take a resource constrained farm of physical servers and virtualize them. It is much more about consolidating under utilized servers and/or separating application/OS conflict issues. Also, as you point out, if DR is the first priority then you might choose to virtualize. BTW- Do you have experience/feedback running the Softricity SoftGrid client on a Metaframe VM? Any "gotchas" there? Steve Greenberg Thin Client Computing 34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453 Scottsdale, AZ 85262 (602) 432-8649 (602) 296-0411 fax steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ron Oglesby Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 7:35 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX Steve. Gotta hit this one: >What the published studies actually show is that you end up with less users >per Virtual Machine then on the same physical hardware, however, you can >run >more VM's than physical instances of the OS and as a result you actually >end >up with around 20% more total users on the same hardware! I am not standing up for the published study thing BUT being with the largest single location VMware partner I gotta talk about VM and Citrix a little. It has pros and cons and myself and another of our consultants here have run some simulations and cost benifts and worry about the "perceived savings" with Citrix and VM. We spec it for CSGs WI, ZDCs, under utilized silos etc. BUT VMWARE shines when hardware is underutilized. If your silo runs at 90% all the time (lets say processor) then taking two duals and collapsing them onto a quad after the purchase of a VMware ESX lic and their SMP lic module the cost is to high to justify unless the primary goal is portability of the DSK files. Now this is not to say that if you are hitting OS limits within a citrix farm and not hardware limits (such as running out of paged pool kernel mem, registry space etc) that using VMWare to partition the hardware will get you more users/sessions per physical box. This is the truth. BUT if your servers are truly physical resource constrained then we have found it better to focus VMware in the lower utilized one off silos and still have the ability to port primary silos to VMWare if needed (use a PTV to get the images before hand and just store them) Just my 2 cents. Ron Oglesby Senior Technical Architect RapidApp Office 312.372.7188 Mobile 815.325.7618 email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: Steve Greenberg [mailto:steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:14 PM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: VMWare ESX >>...The reason that I think we have not seen this is that people perceive that the overhead of VMware means that you end up with fewer concurrent users on two VM's on a quad, then you would with two separate dual CPU servers. What the published studies actually show is that you end up with less users per Virtual Machine then on the same physical hardware, however, you can run more VM's than physical instances of the OS and as a result you actually end up with around 20% more total users on the same hardware! Steve Greenberg Thin Client Computing 34522 N. Scottsdale Rd. suite D8453 Scottsdale, AZ 85262 (602) 432-8649 (602) 296-0411 fax steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx ******************************************************** This Week's Sponsor - ThinPrint .Print Server Engine Thinprint can help you save money, protect resources, simplify administration, save time and increase flexibility by solving all of your printing needs. http://www.thinprint.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm Domains currently for sale by The Kenzig Group http://www.kenzig.com/serv01.htm New Site: Free Weblogs! http://www.blogvortex.com *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This Week's Sponsor - ThinPrint .Print Server Engine Thinprint can help you save money, protect resources, simplify administration, save time and increase flexibility by solving all of your printing needs. http://www.thinprint.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm Domains currently for sale by The Kenzig Group http://www.kenzig.com/serv01.htm New Site: Free Weblogs! http://www.blogvortex.com *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This Week's Sponsor - ThinPrint .Print Server Engine Thinprint can help you save money, protect resources, simplify administration, save time and increase flexibility by solving all of your printing needs. http://www.thinprint.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm Domains currently for sale by The Kenzig Group http://www.kenzig.com/serv01.htm New Site: Free Weblogs! http://www.blogvortex.com *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This Week's Sponsor - ThinPrint .Print Server Engine Thinprint can help you save money, protect resources, simplify administration, save time and increase flexibility by solving all of your printing needs. http://www.thinprint.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm Domains currently for sale by The Kenzig Group http://www.kenzig.com/serv01.htm New Site: Free Weblogs! http://www.blogvortex.com *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This Week's Sponsor - ThinPrint .Print Server Engine Thinprint can help you save money, protect resources, simplify administration, save time and increase flexibility by solving all of your printing needs. http://www.thinprint.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm Domains currently for sale by The Kenzig Group http://www.kenzig.com/serv01.htm New Site: Free Weblogs! http://www.blogvortex.com *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This Week's Sponsor - ThinPrint .Print Server Engine Thinprint can help you save money, protect resources, simplify administration, save time and increase flexibility by solving all of your printing needs. http://www.thinprint.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm Domains currently for sale by The Kenzig Group http://www.kenzig.com/serv01.htm New Site: Free Weblogs! http://www.blogvortex.com *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This Week's Sponsor - ThinPrint .Print Server Engine Thinprint can help you save money, protect resources, simplify administration, save time and increase flexibility by solving all of your printing needs. http://www.thinprint.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm Domains currently for sale by The Kenzig Group http://www.kenzig.com/serv01.htm New Site: Free Weblogs! http://www.blogvortex.com *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This Week's Sponsor - ThinPrint .Print Server Engine Thinprint can help you save money, protect resources, simplify administration, save time and increase flexibility by solving all of your printing needs. http://www.thinprint.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm Domains currently for sale by The Kenzig Group http://www.kenzig.com/serv01.htm New Site: Free Weblogs! http://www.blogvortex.com *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This Week's Sponsor - ThinPrint .Print Server Engine Thinprint can help you save money, protect resources, simplify administration, save time and increase flexibility by solving all of your printing needs. http://www.thinprint.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm Domains currently for sale by The Kenzig Group http://www.kenzig.com/serv01.htm New Site: Free Weblogs! http://www.blogvortex.com *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This Week's Sponsor - ThinPrint .Print Server Engine Thinprint can help you save money, protect resources, simplify administration, save time and increase flexibility by solving all of your printing needs. http://www.thinprint.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm Domains currently for sale by The Kenzig Group http://www.kenzig.com/serv01.htm New Site: Free Weblogs! http://www.blogvortex.com *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This Week's Sponsor - ThinPrint .Print Server Engine Thinprint can help you save money, protect resources, simplify administration, save time and increase flexibility by solving all of your printing needs. http://www.thinprint.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm Domains currently for sale by The Kenzig Group http://www.kenzig.com/serv01.htm New Site: Free Weblogs! http://www.blogvortex.com *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This Week's Sponsor - ThinPrint .Print Server Engine Thinprint can help you save money, protect resources, simplify administration, save time and increase flexibility by solving all of your printing needs. http://www.thinprint.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm Domains currently for sale by The Kenzig Group http://www.kenzig.com/serv01.htm New Site: Free Weblogs! http://www.blogvortex.com *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This Week's Sponsor - ThinPrint .Print Server Engine Thinprint can help you save money, protect resources, simplify administration, save time and increase flexibility by solving all of your printing needs. http://www.thinprint.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm Domains currently for sale by The Kenzig Group http://www.kenzig.com/serv01.htm New Site: Free Weblogs! http://www.blogvortex.com *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm