[TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround amp system protection ?

  • From: "Damon" <damon101@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "TechAssist" <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 19:26:22 -0500

Well, wave a steak or spaghetti in front of my nose ....I'll be asleep in 5
minutes. At least Professor Silverman can get completely through his
dissertation.....and my eyes won't even roll back into my head.

 Just had the best darn steak I ever ate about 5 minutes ago....shared some
with a couple of my cats...even better than the steaks I get at Applebee's
or TGI Friday's.....and you know why??

Because I zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....sat on it in the van, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
today....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz smells just like a zzzzzzzzzzz...mmmmmmm.
Now that's zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz good eatin'   ;-)

Damon Brunger

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hoyt's TV" <hoytstv@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:45 AM
Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround amp
system protection ?


| > Tell me a story about capacitors and how they are
| built.......C'mon....tell
| > me one more....then I'll go to bed
|
| Gawd, you must me old.
|
| Russ Hoyt
| Hoyt's TV
| Exeter, NH
|
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Damon" <damon101@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 7:51 AM
| Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround amp
| system protection ?
|
|
| > BINGO.....that's what makes ALL transformers.....and inductors
| > operate....NON saturated magnetism. You reach that point, or your input
| > signal stabilizes and you're done.
| >
| > I'm not as elaborate as Professor Silverman here.....but he knows his
| stuff
| > guys..... (that or he's the best shyster I've ever heard...injecting
| subtle
| > half truths in his full truths juuuuuuust enough to slip them past
us....)
| >
| > Tell me a story about capacitors and how they are
| built.......C'mon....tell
| > me one more....then I'll go to bed....pleeeeeeeeeeze...;-)
| >
| > Damon Brunger
| > Telrad Electronic Services
| > Ft Wayne, IN 46815
| >
| >
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "J Silverman" <greentron@xxxxxxx>
| > To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 3:34 PM
| > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround
amp
| > system protection ?
| >
| >
| > | Even though the voltage applied is not changing during the flat top of
a
| > | square wave, the current is changing. The changing current is what is
| > | generating the changing manetic field which is what is generating the
| > | counter EMF. This continues as long as the core does not saturate.
| > | Jerry Silverman
| > | Greentron Inc
| > | 4 Newland Ave
| > | Greenville SC 29609
| > | 864 232 3889
| > | Fax 271 2080
| > | mailto:greentron@xxxxxxx
| > | ----- Original Message -----
| > | From: "George" <grndmstrg@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:52 PM
| > | Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround
| amp
| > | system protection ?
| > |
| > |
| > | > Ok, what about the impedance loss of the transformer? When the
square
| > wave
| > | > reaches the maximum volt it loses the changing potential that takes
| > place
| > | > when alternating current is applied, therefore no counter
| electromotive
| > | > force (EMF) is developed thus no reactance is developed, there will
| only
| > | be
| > | > direct current resistance present, that can equal to damaging high
| > current
| > | > levels until it switches then high current again. I would hope the
| > circuit
| > | > has a primary fuse in place. Just my two cents worth.
| > | >
| > | > George
| > | > Afana Electronics
| > | > Moreno Valley, CA
| > | > ----- Original Message -----
| > | > From: <gulftech@xxxxxxxx>
| > | > To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 4:45 PM
| > | > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
TV,DVD,surround
| > amp
| > | > system protection ?
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > > Come on Jerry,
| > | > >
| > | > > Since when is a square wave referred to as RMS?  That is only
| applied
| > to
| > | > > normal AC of some given frequency.
| > | > >
| > | > > I would agree that a zero to +115 volt square wave would result in
| > | 115VDC
| > | > > output, but as far as ripple--you got to be kidding.  That would
be
| a
| > | 50%
| > | > > duty cycle, fed into a conventional bridge assuming no leakage.
It
| > | would
| > | > > also result in a higher than normal current for the diodes of the
| > | bridge.
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > > Feeding 120 VAC 60Hz, the peak is (indeed) 169.68 volts.   (1.414
x
| > | 120.)
| > | > >  But, a square wave, 0-120, results in just 120 volts less decay
| time
| > | > > during non-conduction, with much less need for filtering.  Now, if
| the
| > | > > input were to be a -60 to +60 square wave, the result would still
be
| > the
| > | > > same.  I have too much respect for your input not to challenge
your
| > | > > statement.  You said "Transformers designed for 60 Hertz will run
| > hotter
| > | > > when fed a square wave."  Not true.  The avg. current of a sine
wave
| > | > > input is only 63%.  A square wave is either on or off.  That means
| > 50%.
| > | > > Now, even if the square wave was +/- 60 vdc, the average current
| would
| > | > > STILL BE LESS than 120v RMS.
| > | > >
| > | > > I don't often pick a problem with your posts.  You are a person I
| > | > > respect.  However, I disagree with your statement.  I certainly
| stand
| > to
| > | > > be wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time, but according to theory,
| > | > > whether it be 0-120 V RMS  or -60-+60 square wave, will produce
the
| > same
| > | > > average current.  The peak voltages would be of course different.
| > Given
| > | > > the separate inputs, 120 VAC to a bridge gives 169 volts peak.  A
| > square
| > | > > wave 120 dc input yeilds only 120 volts output, with lesser need
for
| > | > > filtering.  This is, of course, neglecting the diode drop.
| > | > >
| > | > > I don't know how this would affect equipment connected to a
backup.
| I
| > | > > don't mean to keep this for discussion.  I personally feel that
| > | comparing
| > | > > computers to amplifiers for a load is not possible.  The computer
| load
| > | is
| > | > > fairly constant, but the amplifier load is not.   The current draw
| on
| > a
| > | > > computer is fairly constant.  That of an amp is dependent on both
| the
| > | > > source and the volume level selected.  I would suggest that the
peak
| > of
| > | > > power required for an amp would be much higher than for a
| > | > > computer/monitor.
| > | > >
| > | > > My apologies to Jay, the other TechAssist staff, and to those of
you
| > who
| > | > > could care less.
| > | > >
| > | > > I don't mean to imply that this question has no merit.  It does.
It
| > | > > gives all of us a chance to discuss the basics of our trade.
| > | > >
| > | > > I spent years teaching this stuff, but I have been wrong before.
| Just
| > | > > don't stop trying to learn.
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > > Ken Smith
| > | > > Gulf Technical Services
| > | > > 3034 Gulf Breeze Parkway
| > | > > Gulf Breeze, FL  32563
| > | > > 850-934-8324 (Voice) 850-932-0819 (Fax)
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > > On Fri, 7 May 2004 17:38:51 -0400 "J Silverman"
<greentron@xxxxxxx>
| > | > > writes:
| > | > > > If you have a 115 volt RMS square wave and rectify it and filter
| it,
| > | > > > you
| > | > > > will get approx 115 VDC and practically no ripple. If you
rectify
| > | > > > and filter
| > | > > > a 115 volt RMS sine wave you will get about 162 VDC and ripple
| > | > > > depending on
| > | > > > load. Transformers designed for 60 Hertz will run hotter when
fed
| a
| > | > > > square
| > | > > > wave. Thinner laminations are used if the transformer has to
| handle
| > | > > > higher
| > | > > > frequencies. Also the magnetron high voltage in a microwave is
| > | > > > developed
| > | > > > using a 60 Hertz transformer with a resonating capacitor,
selected
| t
| > o
| > | > > > resonate with the leakage inductance of the transformer. If you
| want
| > | > > > to
| > | > > > change power sources for equipment, you have to keep these
things
| in
| > | > > > mind.
| > | > > > Jerry Silverman
| > | > > > Greentron Inc
| > | > > > 4 Newland Ave
| > | > > > Greenville SC 29609
| > | > > > 864 232 3889
| > | > > > Fax 271 2080
| > | > > > mailto:greentron@xxxxxxx
| > | > > > ----- Original Message -----
| > | > > > From: "Ty" <ty1k@xxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | > > > To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:23 PM
| > | > > > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
| > | > > > TV,DVD,surround amp
| > | > > > system protection ?
| > | > > >
| > | > > >
| > | > > > > This question has me intrigued. Why is it being debated by
| > | > > > proficient
| > | > > > > electronic technicians?
| > | > > > > OK. MODERN televisions, VCRs, DVDs, anything with a pulse
power
| > | > > > supply.
| > | > > > > Reasoning that modern Pulse Power supplies essentially run on
| DC,
| > | > > > I was
| > | > > > > wondering what difference it makes what kind of sign, square,
or
| > | > > > whatever,
| > | > > > > wave gets rectified in order to charge the primary filter
| > | > > > capacitor. As
| > | > > > long
| > | > > > > as the filter is charged to the critical starting voltage and
is
| > | > > > maintained.
| > | > > > > Of course, you will have to raise the input to meet the output
| > | > > > criteria.
| > | > > > > Heck, you can use DC for input and you can even ignore the
| > | > > > polarity due to
| > | > > > > the bridge!.
| > | > > > > Mmmmm....
| > | > > > > Take a voltage reading on the main filter cap under full load.
| > | > > > > Connect a bunch of batteries to attain the voltage. Connect it
| > | > > > across the
| > | > > > > filter and you got your problem solved. Instant UPS. Of
course,
| > | > > > you will
| > | > > > > have to modify the ON/OFF switch. Another problem is charging

| > | > > > inrush. Use
| > | > > > a
| > | > > > > diode and resistor combination. Heck, we can figure it out!
| > | > > > > Now the 10 lb transformer in a power amplifier or in the
| Microwave
| > | > > > is
| > | > > > > another story, but not impossible if batteries are used after
| the
| > | > > > > transformer. Storage would be a problem. Where would you store
| > | > > > enough
| > | > > > > batteries to power a Magnetron and finish cooking that turkey.
| > | > > > > Lets see. Move the holyday dishes to the basement, move the
| > | > > > regular dishes
| > | > > > > to where the holyday dishes were, and WALLA!  LOOK OUT TURKEY!
| > | > > > > Just realized the biggest obstacle to my simple idea. How am I
| > | > > > going to
| > | > > > get
| > | > > > > the wife to allow me to drill a hole in the countertop...
| > | > > > >
| > | > > > > Have fun! >(;o)
| > | > > > >
| > | > > > > Ty
| > | > > > >
| > | > > > > Tiberius Kraemer
| > | > > > > BLUE STAR ELECTRONICS
| > | > > > > 3312 Silverton Rd. NE
| > | > > > > Salem, Oregon
| > | > > > > Phone: 503 391 1491
| > | > > > > Mailto:ty1k@xxxxxxxxxxx
| > | > > > >
| > | > > > >
| > | > > > >
| > | > > > > -----Original Message-----
| > | > > > > From: techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
| > | > > > > [mailto:techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Phil
Bader
| > | > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 11:44 AM
| > | > > > > To: techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
| > | > > > > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
| > | > > > TV,DVD,surround
| > | > > > > amp system protection ?
| > | > > > >
| > | > > > >
| > | > > > > Shoot, jerry why are your facts so depressing!
| > | > > > > Seriously, I called APC, and the tech said the "stepped sine
| wave"
| > | > > > > versions may not work satisfactorily with , say, an engraving
| > | > > > machine
| > | > > > > (My next door neighbor has a trophy shop). he suggested their
| > | > > > better
| > | > > > > Smart UPS line, I think its called.Anyway, it would be sort of
| > self
| > | > > > > defeating to destroy the very thing you are wanting to
| protect...
| > | > > > > Phil Bader
| > | > > > >
| > | > > > > J Silverman wrote:
| > | > > > >
| > | > > > > >The computer power supplies work fine with the 115 VAC (RMS)
| > | > > > square wave
| > | > > > > >output from the low cost UPSs. Most consumer electronic
| equipment
| > | > > > is
| > | > > > rated
| > | > > > > >for 115 volt RMS 60 Hertz sine wave, plus or minus 10%. If
you
| > | > > > use the
| > | > > > > >computer UPS with consumer electronic equipment the internal
| > | > > > voltages and
| > | > > > > >losses are different than the spec., so you are not sure if
you
| > | > > > will have
| > | > > > > >functional problems or if things will overheat. A lot of
stuff
| > | > > > will
| > | > > > > probably
| > | > > > > >work OK, but you cant be sure. So the suggestion was made to
| use
| > | > > > UPSs
| > | > > > that
| > | > > > > >have a sine wave output and these are many times more
expensive
| > | > > > than the
| > | > > > > >ones with a square wave output.
| > | > > > > >
| > | > > > > >Jerry Silverman
| > | > > > > >Greentron Inc
| > | > > > > >4 Newland Ave
| > | > > > > >Greenville SC 29609
| > | > > > > >864 232 3889
| > | > > > > >Fax 271 2080
| > | > > > > >mailto:greentron@xxxxxxx
| > | > > > > >----- Original Message -----
| > | > > > > >From: "Kevin" <kevintv@xxxxxxx>
| > | > > > > >To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | > > > > >Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 5:30 AM
| > | > > > > >Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
| > | > > > TV,DVD,surround
| > | > > > amp
| > | > > > > >system protection ?
| > | > > > > >
| > | > > > > >
| > | > > > > >
| > | > > > > >
| > | > > > > >>Using a UPS for a computer is also designed to save what a
| > | > > > person is
| > | > > > > >>working on at the time of a power outage.  When the power
goes
| > | > > > out the
| > | > > > > >>computer stays on and the person can save his work and then
| shut
| > | > > > the
| > | > > > > >>computer down properly.  In some cases it will also prevent
| data
| > | > > > from
| > | > > > > >>being corrupted on the hard drive when the power goes out.
| > | > > > Having the
| > | > > > > >>power outage causes windows to shut down improperly, which
| could
| > | > > > corrupt
| > | > > > > >>data on the hard drive.
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>Kevin Wilks
| > | > > > > >>Kevin's TV & Video Repair
| > | > > > > >>Penticton BC Canada
| > | > > > > >>kevintv@xxxxxxx
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>-----Original Message-----
| > | > > > > >>From: techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
| > | > > > > >>[mailto:techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hoyt's
| TV
| > | > > > > >>Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 2:11 PM
| > | > > > > >>To: techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
| > | > > > > >>Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
| > | > > > TV,DVD,surround
| > | > > > > >>amp system protection ?
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>Considering the price of some TVs and stereos these days,
I'm
| > | > > > surprised
| > | > > > > >>they
| > | > > > > >>don't push UPS's for those, like they do for computers.
| > | > > > Computers were
| > | > > > > >>the
| > | > > > > >>first things that were overly sensitive but TVs etc. have
now
| > | > > > caught up.
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>Russ Hoyt
| > | > > > > >>Hoyt's TV
| > | > > > > >>Exeter, NH
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>----- Original Message -----
| > | > > > > >>From: "Larry Poffen" <lpoffen@xxxxxxx>
| > | > > > > >>To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | > > > > >>Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 3:46 PM
| > | > > > > >>Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
| > | > > > TV,DVD,surround
| > | > > > > >>amp
| > | > > > > >>system protection ?
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>>I have used a APC 1000 for my personal stuff for about 2
| years.
| > | > > >  I had
| > | > > > > >>>
| > | > > > > >>>
| > | > > > > >>a
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>>power surge that took it out this year, along with many
other
| > | > > > things,
| > | > > > > >>>
| > | > > > > >>>
| > | > > > > >>but
| > | > > > > >>my
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>>36" TV  &VCR/  stereo stuff were all OK.  It is worth the
| peace
| > | > > > of
| > | > > > > >>>
| > | > > > > >>>
| > | > > > > >>mind.
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>>Larry
| > | > > > > >>>
| > | > > > > >>>Larrys TV Service
| > | > > > > >>>Broken Arrow OK 74011
| > | > > > > >>>phone 918-455-1041
| > | > > > > >>>Fax 918-451-4485
| > | > > > > >>>e-mail lpoffen@xxxxxxx
| > | > > > > >>>----- Original Message -----
| > | > > > > >>>From: "Phil Bader" <tjanphyl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | > > > > >>>To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | > > > > >>>Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 9:06 AM
| > | > > > > >>>Subject: [TechAssist] use a battery backup UPS for
| > | > > > TV,DVD,surround amp
| > | > > > > >>>system protection ?
| > | > > > > >>>
| > | > > > > >>>
| > | > > > > >>>
| > | > > > > >>>
| > | > > > > >>>>I never heard of anyone doing this, but I've had this
| thought
| > | > > > for a
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>few
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>>>years:
| > | > > > > >>>>use a heavy battery back up UPS like used on PC systems
for
| an
| > | > > > > >>>>entertainment center. Many ills are from power
| > | > > > > >>>>fluctuations,sags,surges,etc. TV EEPROMs corrupted, power
| > | > > > supplies
| > | > > > > >>>>damaged, pro-jo CRTs damaged with  a spot because it went
| down
| > | > > > at
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>once
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>>>without proper power down,etc.
| > | > > > > >>>>Most equipement is not a heavy current draw.
| > | > > > > >>>>Can this be done and should it?
| > | > > > > >>>>I have a Zenith 50" projection TV (not wide
screen,standard
| > | > > > 3:4)
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>which
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>>>is rated at 215 watts (2.8A) "max".
| > | > > > > >>>> I think my VCR/DVD deck pulls maybe 30 watts.
| > | > > > > >>>>My Bose "lifestyle 7" surround amp, I don't know the
| wattage.
| > | > > > > >>>>And a cable box maybe another 30 watts?
| > | > > > > >>>>I'm guessing 300-400 watts max running everything
| > | > > > > >>>> if using the sound system as well. Much less if using
only
| > the
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>projo's
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>>>speakers.
| > | > > > > >>>>Now most of these UPS units are in standby mode and  the
| > | > > > connected
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>gear
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>>>is running off line current until there is a power loss,
| which
| > | > > > time
| > | > > > > >>>>ultra-fast switching transferrs power to the battery
system.
| > | > > > This
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>would
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>>>be only needed for intermittant power fluctuations, or if
| lost
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>totally,
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>>>enough time to safely power off the audio/video system.
| > | > > > > >>>>A 6 outlet power strip plugged into the UPS would be
| > | > > > convenient.
| > | > > > > >>>>What would be a good power rating for a UPS?
| > | > > > > >>>>Twice needed wattage? whats rule of thumb, and also whats
| your
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>feedback
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>
| > | > > > > >>>>on this idea?
| > | > > > > >>>>Phil Bader
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>--
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>Philip Bader
| > | > > > > >>>>Jan Phyl TV Inc. (estab. 1976)
| > | > > > > >>>>3420 Recker Hwy. Winter Haven, Fl. 33880
| > | > > > > >>>>Fax (863) 299-8821
| > | > > > > >>>>email: tjanphyl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>>
| > | > > > > >>>
| > | > > > > >>>
| > | > > > >
| > | > > > >
| > | > > > >
| > | > > > >
| > | > > >
| > | >
| > |
| >
|
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| > | > > > > http://www.tech-assist.org  and select "Login Problems?".
| > | > > > > Email Archives:
| > | > > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/
| > | > > >
| > | > > >
| > | > > >
| > | >
| > |
| >
|
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
| > | > > ----
| > | > > > Lost Password:
| > | > > > http://www.tech-assist.org  and select "Login Problems?".
| > | > > > Email Archives:
| > | > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/
| > | > > >
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > > ________________________________________________________________
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| > | > > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
| > | > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
| > | > >
| > | >
| > |
| >
|
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
| > | > ---
| > | > > Lost Password:
| > | > > http://www.tech-assist.org  and select "Login Problems?".
| > | > > Email Archives:
| > | > > //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/
| > | > >
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| >
|
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
| > | ---
| > | > Lost Password:
| > | > http://www.tech-assist.org  and select "Login Problems?".
| > | > Email Archives:
| > | > //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/
| > |
| > |
| >
|
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------
| > ---
| > | Lost Password:
| > | http://www.tech-assist.org  and select "Login Problems?".
| > | Email Archives:
| > | //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/
| > |
| >
| >
|
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
| ---
| > Lost Password:
| > http://www.tech-assist.org  and select "Login Problems?".
| > Email Archives:
| > //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/
| >
|
|
|
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
| Lost Password:
| http://www.tech-assist.org  and select "Login Problems?".
| Email Archives:
| //www.freelists.org/archives/techassist/
|


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