[TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround amp system protection ?

  • From: "Hoyt's TV" <hoytstv@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:45:16 -0400

> Tell me a story about capacitors and how they are
built.......C'mon....tell
> me one more....then I'll go to bed

Gawd, you must me old.

Russ Hoyt
Hoyt's TV
Exeter, NH


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Damon" <damon101@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 7:51 AM
Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround amp
system protection ?


> BINGO.....that's what makes ALL transformers.....and inductors
> operate....NON saturated magnetism. You reach that point, or your input
> signal stabilizes and you're done.
>
> I'm not as elaborate as Professor Silverman here.....but he knows his
stuff
> guys..... (that or he's the best shyster I've ever heard...injecting
subtle
> half truths in his full truths juuuuuuust enough to slip them past us....)
>
> Tell me a story about capacitors and how they are
built.......C'mon....tell
> me one more....then I'll go to bed....pleeeeeeeeeeze...;-)
>
> Damon Brunger
> Telrad Electronic Services
> Ft Wayne, IN 46815
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J Silverman" <greentron@xxxxxxx>
> To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 3:34 PM
> Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround amp
> system protection ?
>
>
> | Even though the voltage applied is not changing during the flat top of a
> | square wave, the current is changing. The changing current is what is
> | generating the changing manetic field which is what is generating the
> | counter EMF. This continues as long as the core does not saturate.
> | Jerry Silverman
> | Greentron Inc
> | 4 Newland Ave
> | Greenville SC 29609
> | 864 232 3889
> | Fax 271 2080
> | mailto:greentron@xxxxxxx
> | ----- Original Message -----
> | From: "George" <grndmstrg@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:52 PM
> | Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround
amp
> | system protection ?
> |
> |
> | > Ok, what about the impedance loss of the transformer? When the square
> wave
> | > reaches the maximum volt it loses the changing potential that takes
> place
> | > when alternating current is applied, therefore no counter
electromotive
> | > force (EMF) is developed thus no reactance is developed, there will
only
> | be
> | > direct current resistance present, that can equal to damaging high
> current
> | > levels until it switches then high current again. I would hope the
> circuit
> | > has a primary fuse in place. Just my two cents worth.
> | >
> | > George
> | > Afana Electronics
> | > Moreno Valley, CA
> | > ----- Original Message -----
> | > From: <gulftech@xxxxxxxx>
> | > To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 4:45 PM
> | > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for TV,DVD,surround
> amp
> | > system protection ?
> | >
> | >
> | > > Come on Jerry,
> | > >
> | > > Since when is a square wave referred to as RMS?  That is only
applied
> to
> | > > normal AC of some given frequency.
> | > >
> | > > I would agree that a zero to +115 volt square wave would result in
> | 115VDC
> | > > output, but as far as ripple--you got to be kidding.  That would be
a
> | 50%
> | > > duty cycle, fed into a conventional bridge assuming no leakage.  It
> | would
> | > > also result in a higher than normal current for the diodes of the
> | bridge.
> | > >
> | > >
> | > > Feeding 120 VAC 60Hz, the peak is (indeed) 169.68 volts.   (1.414 x
> | 120.)
> | > >  But, a square wave, 0-120, results in just 120 volts less decay
time
> | > > during non-conduction, with much less need for filtering.  Now, if
the
> | > > input were to be a -60 to +60 square wave, the result would still be
> the
> | > > same.  I have too much respect for your input not to challenge your
> | > > statement.  You said "Transformers designed for 60 Hertz will run
> hotter
> | > > when fed a square wave."  Not true.  The avg. current of a sine wave
> | > > input is only 63%.  A square wave is either on or off.  That means
> 50%.
> | > > Now, even if the square wave was +/- 60 vdc, the average current
would
> | > > STILL BE LESS than 120v RMS.
> | > >
> | > > I don't often pick a problem with your posts.  You are a person I
> | > > respect.  However, I disagree with your statement.  I certainly
stand
> to
> | > > be wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time, but according to theory,
> | > > whether it be 0-120 V RMS  or -60-+60 square wave, will produce the
> same
> | > > average current.  The peak voltages would be of course different.
> Given
> | > > the separate inputs, 120 VAC to a bridge gives 169 volts peak.  A
> square
> | > > wave 120 dc input yeilds only 120 volts output, with lesser need for
> | > > filtering.  This is, of course, neglecting the diode drop.
> | > >
> | > > I don't know how this would affect equipment connected to a backup.
I
> | > > don't mean to keep this for discussion.  I personally feel that
> | comparing
> | > > computers to amplifiers for a load is not possible.  The computer
load
> | is
> | > > fairly constant, but the amplifier load is not.   The current draw
on
> a
> | > > computer is fairly constant.  That of an amp is dependent on both
the
> | > > source and the volume level selected.  I would suggest that the peak
> of
> | > > power required for an amp would be much higher than for a
> | > > computer/monitor.
> | > >
> | > > My apologies to Jay, the other TechAssist staff, and to those of you
> who
> | > > could care less.
> | > >
> | > > I don't mean to imply that this question has no merit.  It does.  It
> | > > gives all of us a chance to discuss the basics of our trade.
> | > >
> | > > I spent years teaching this stuff, but I have been wrong before.
Just
> | > > don't stop trying to learn.
> | > >
> | > >
> | > > Ken Smith
> | > > Gulf Technical Services
> | > > 3034 Gulf Breeze Parkway
> | > > Gulf Breeze, FL  32563
> | > > 850-934-8324 (Voice) 850-932-0819 (Fax)
> | > >
> | > >
> | > >
> | > >
> | > > On Fri, 7 May 2004 17:38:51 -0400 "J Silverman" <greentron@xxxxxxx>
> | > > writes:
> | > > > If you have a 115 volt RMS square wave and rectify it and filter
it,
> | > > > you
> | > > > will get approx 115 VDC and practically no ripple. If you rectify
> | > > > and filter
> | > > > a 115 volt RMS sine wave you will get about 162 VDC and ripple
> | > > > depending on
> | > > > load. Transformers designed for 60 Hertz will run hotter when fed
a
> | > > > square
> | > > > wave. Thinner laminations are used if the transformer has to
handle
> | > > > higher
> | > > > frequencies. Also the magnetron high voltage in a microwave is
> | > > > developed
> | > > > using a 60 Hertz transformer with a resonating capacitor, selected
t
> o
> | > > > resonate with the leakage inductance of the transformer. If you
want
> | > > > to
> | > > > change power sources for equipment, you have to keep these things
in
> | > > > mind.
> | > > > Jerry Silverman
> | > > > Greentron Inc
> | > > > 4 Newland Ave
> | > > > Greenville SC 29609
> | > > > 864 232 3889
> | > > > Fax 271 2080
> | > > > mailto:greentron@xxxxxxx
> | > > > ----- Original Message -----
> | > > > From: "Ty" <ty1k@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > > > To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:23 PM
> | > > > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
> | > > > TV,DVD,surround amp
> | > > > system protection ?
> | > > >
> | > > >
> | > > > > This question has me intrigued. Why is it being debated by
> | > > > proficient
> | > > > > electronic technicians?
> | > > > > OK. MODERN televisions, VCRs, DVDs, anything with a pulse power
> | > > > supply.
> | > > > > Reasoning that modern Pulse Power supplies essentially run on
DC,
> | > > > I was
> | > > > > wondering what difference it makes what kind of sign, square, or
> | > > > whatever,
> | > > > > wave gets rectified in order to charge the primary filter
> | > > > capacitor. As
> | > > > long
> | > > > > as the filter is charged to the critical starting voltage and is
> | > > > maintained.
> | > > > > Of course, you will have to raise the input to meet the output
> | > > > criteria.
> | > > > > Heck, you can use DC for input and you can even ignore the
> | > > > polarity due to
> | > > > > the bridge!.
> | > > > > Mmmmm....
> | > > > > Take a voltage reading on the main filter cap under full load.
> | > > > > Connect a bunch of batteries to attain the voltage. Connect it
> | > > > across the
> | > > > > filter and you got your problem solved. Instant UPS. Of course,
> | > > > you will
> | > > > > have to modify the ON/OFF switch. Another problem is charging
> | > > > inrush. Use
> | > > > a
> | > > > > diode and resistor combination. Heck, we can figure it out!
> | > > > > Now the 10 lb transformer in a power amplifier or in the
Microwave
> | > > > is
> | > > > > another story, but not impossible if batteries are used after
the
> | > > > > transformer. Storage would be a problem. Where would you store
> | > > > enough
> | > > > > batteries to power a Magnetron and finish cooking that turkey.
> | > > > > Lets see. Move the holyday dishes to the basement, move the
> | > > > regular dishes
> | > > > > to where the holyday dishes were, and WALLA!  LOOK OUT TURKEY!
> | > > > > Just realized the biggest obstacle to my simple idea. How am I
> | > > > going to
> | > > > get
> | > > > > the wife to allow me to drill a hole in the countertop...
> | > > > >
> | > > > > Have fun! >(;o)
> | > > > >
> | > > > > Ty
> | > > > >
> | > > > > Tiberius Kraemer
> | > > > > BLUE STAR ELECTRONICS
> | > > > > 3312 Silverton Rd. NE
> | > > > > Salem, Oregon
> | > > > > Phone: 503 391 1491
> | > > > > Mailto:ty1k@xxxxxxxxxxx
> | > > > >
> | > > > >
> | > > > >
> | > > > > -----Original Message-----
> | > > > > From: techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> | > > > > [mailto:techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Phil Bader
> | > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 11:44 AM
> | > > > > To: techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> | > > > > Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
> | > > > TV,DVD,surround
> | > > > > amp system protection ?
> | > > > >
> | > > > >
> | > > > > Shoot, jerry why are your facts so depressing!
> | > > > > Seriously, I called APC, and the tech said the "stepped sine
wave"
> | > > > > versions may not work satisfactorily with , say, an engraving
> | > > > machine
> | > > > > (My next door neighbor has a trophy shop). he suggested their
> | > > > better
> | > > > > Smart UPS line, I think its called.Anyway, it would be sort of
> self
> | > > > > defeating to destroy the very thing you are wanting to
protect...
> | > > > > Phil Bader
> | > > > >
> | > > > > J Silverman wrote:
> | > > > >
> | > > > > >The computer power supplies work fine with the 115 VAC (RMS)
> | > > > square wave
> | > > > > >output from the low cost UPSs. Most consumer electronic
equipment
> | > > > is
> | > > > rated
> | > > > > >for 115 volt RMS 60 Hertz sine wave, plus or minus 10%. If you
> | > > > use the
> | > > > > >computer UPS with consumer electronic equipment the internal
> | > > > voltages and
> | > > > > >losses are different than the spec., so you are not sure if you
> | > > > will have
> | > > > > >functional problems or if things will overheat. A lot of stuff
> | > > > will
> | > > > > probably
> | > > > > >work OK, but you cant be sure. So the suggestion was made to
use
> | > > > UPSs
> | > > > that
> | > > > > >have a sine wave output and these are many times more expensive
> | > > > than the
> | > > > > >ones with a square wave output.
> | > > > > >
> | > > > > >Jerry Silverman
> | > > > > >Greentron Inc
> | > > > > >4 Newland Ave
> | > > > > >Greenville SC 29609
> | > > > > >864 232 3889
> | > > > > >Fax 271 2080
> | > > > > >mailto:greentron@xxxxxxx
> | > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> | > > > > >From: "Kevin" <kevintv@xxxxxxx>
> | > > > > >To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > > > > >Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 5:30 AM
> | > > > > >Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
> | > > > TV,DVD,surround
> | > > > amp
> | > > > > >system protection ?
> | > > > > >
> | > > > > >
> | > > > > >
> | > > > > >
> | > > > > >>Using a UPS for a computer is also designed to save what a
> | > > > person is
> | > > > > >>working on at the time of a power outage.  When the power goes
> | > > > out the
> | > > > > >>computer stays on and the person can save his work and then
shut
> | > > > the
> | > > > > >>computer down properly.  In some cases it will also prevent
data
> | > > > from
> | > > > > >>being corrupted on the hard drive when the power goes out.
> | > > > Having the
> | > > > > >>power outage causes windows to shut down improperly, which
could
> | > > > corrupt
> | > > > > >>data on the hard drive.
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>Kevin Wilks
> | > > > > >>Kevin's TV & Video Repair
> | > > > > >>Penticton BC Canada
> | > > > > >>kevintv@xxxxxxx
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>-----Original Message-----
> | > > > > >>From: techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> | > > > > >>[mailto:techassist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hoyt's
TV
> | > > > > >>Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 2:11 PM
> | > > > > >>To: techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> | > > > > >>Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
> | > > > TV,DVD,surround
> | > > > > >>amp system protection ?
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>Considering the price of some TVs and stereos these days, I'm
> | > > > surprised
> | > > > > >>they
> | > > > > >>don't push UPS's for those, like they do for computers.
> | > > > Computers were
> | > > > > >>the
> | > > > > >>first things that were overly sensitive but TVs etc. have now
> | > > > caught up.
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>Russ Hoyt
> | > > > > >>Hoyt's TV
> | > > > > >>Exeter, NH
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>----- Original Message -----
> | > > > > >>From: "Larry Poffen" <lpoffen@xxxxxxx>
> | > > > > >>To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > > > > >>Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 3:46 PM
> | > > > > >>Subject: [TechAssist] Re: use a battery backup UPS for
> | > > > TV,DVD,surround
> | > > > > >>amp
> | > > > > >>system protection ?
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>I have used a APC 1000 for my personal stuff for about 2
years.
> | > > >  I had
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>a
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>power surge that took it out this year, along with many other
> | > > > things,
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>but
> | > > > > >>my
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>36" TV  &VCR/  stereo stuff were all OK.  It is worth the
peace
> | > > > of
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>mind.
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>Larry
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>Larrys TV Service
> | > > > > >>>Broken Arrow OK 74011
> | > > > > >>>phone 918-455-1041
> | > > > > >>>Fax 918-451-4485
> | > > > > >>>e-mail lpoffen@xxxxxxx
> | > > > > >>>----- Original Message -----
> | > > > > >>>From: "Phil Bader" <tjanphyl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > > > > >>>To: <techassist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> | > > > > >>>Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 9:06 AM
> | > > > > >>>Subject: [TechAssist] use a battery backup UPS for
> | > > > TV,DVD,surround amp
> | > > > > >>>system protection ?
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>>I never heard of anyone doing this, but I've had this
thought
> | > > > for a
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>few
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>years:
> | > > > > >>>>use a heavy battery back up UPS like used on PC systems for
an
> | > > > > >>>>entertainment center. Many ills are from power
> | > > > > >>>>fluctuations,sags,surges,etc. TV EEPROMs corrupted, power
> | > > > supplies
> | > > > > >>>>damaged, pro-jo CRTs damaged with  a spot because it went
down
> | > > > at
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>once
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>without proper power down,etc.
> | > > > > >>>>Most equipement is not a heavy current draw.
> | > > > > >>>>Can this be done and should it?
> | > > > > >>>>I have a Zenith 50" projection TV (not wide screen,standard
> | > > > 3:4)
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>which
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>is rated at 215 watts (2.8A) "max".
> | > > > > >>>> I think my VCR/DVD deck pulls maybe 30 watts.
> | > > > > >>>>My Bose "lifestyle 7" surround amp, I don't know the
wattage.
> | > > > > >>>>And a cable box maybe another 30 watts?
> | > > > > >>>>I'm guessing 300-400 watts max running everything
> | > > > > >>>> if using the sound system as well. Much less if using only
> the
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>projo's
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>speakers.
> | > > > > >>>>Now most of these UPS units are in standby mode and  the
> | > > > connected
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>gear
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>is running off line current until there is a power loss,
which
> | > > > time
> | > > > > >>>>ultra-fast switching transferrs power to the battery system.
> | > > > This
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>would
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>be only needed for intermittant power fluctuations, or if
lost
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>totally,
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>enough time to safely power off the audio/video system.
> | > > > > >>>>A 6 outlet power strip plugged into the UPS would be
> | > > > convenient.
> | > > > > >>>>What would be a good power rating for a UPS?
> | > > > > >>>>Twice needed wattage? whats rule of thumb, and also whats
your
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>feedback
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>
> | > > > > >>>>on this idea?
> | > > > > >>>>Phil Bader
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>--
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>Philip Bader
> | > > > > >>>>Jan Phyl TV Inc. (estab. 1976)
> | > > > > >>>>3420 Recker Hwy. Winter Haven, Fl. 33880
> | > > > > >>>>Fax (863) 299-8821
> | > > > > >>>>email: tjanphyl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > > >>>
> | > > > >
> | > > > >
> | > > > >
> | > > > >
> | > > >
> | >
> |
>
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