[SI-LIST] Re: PDS analysis?
- From: "Bowden, Ivor" <ibowden@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "Gil Simsic [IEEE]" <gilsimsic@xxxxxxxx>, <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:03:25 -0700
Hi=20Gil,
Thanks=20for=20sharing.
By=20"real=20world"=20I=20do=20not=20mean=20rules=20of=20thumb=20and=20sho=
rtcuts,=20I=20mean=20examples.=20I=20expect=20that=20most=20folks=20on=20t=
his=20list,=20especially=20those=20for=20whom=20SI=20is=20primary=20activi=
ty,=20can=20demonstrate=20examples=20of=20operational=20failures=20due=20t=
o=20bad=20board=20layout.=20I=20also=20know=20that=20a=20large=20number=20=
of=20designs=20never=20get=20PDS=20analysis,=20yet=20work=20fine.=20I'm=20=
interested=20in=20typical=20modern=20technology=20designs=20that=20are=20l=
aid=20out=20in=20standard=20industry=20practice:=20contiguous=20ground=20p=
lanes,=20tandem=20heavy=20split=20power=20planes=20not=20used=20as=20retur=
n=20reference,=20plenty=20of=20properly=20located=20bypass=20caps,=20etc=20=
that=20have=20operational=20failures=20which=20could=20have=20been=20pre-d=
etermined=20by=20PDS=20analysis,=20and=20if=20so,=20how=20did=20that=20ope=
rational=20failure=20manifest?=20For=20example,=20it=20would=20be=20intere=
sting=20to=20see=20a=20scope=20(or=20simulation)=20snap=20shot=20of=20the=20=
voltage=20measured=20directly=20across=20vias=20to=20contiguous=20well=20f=
ed=20planes=20as=20a=20device=20current=20requirement=20approaches=20the=20=
planes=20resonant=20frequency.=20And=20I=20mean=20a=20real=20device,=20not=
=20a=20hypothetical=20entity=20tuned=20to=20instigate=20the=20problem.
-Ivor
-----Original=20Message-----
From:=20Gil=20Simsic=20[IEEE]=20[mailto:gsimsic.ieee@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]=20
Sent:=20Friday,=20March=2028,=202008=201:08=20PM
To:=20Bowden,=20Ivor;=20si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject:=20Re:=20[SI-LIST]=20Re:=20PDS=20analysis?
Ivor
I=20am=20involved=20in=20design=20since=201993,=20and=20have=20numerous=20=
of=20successful=20designs=20
under=20my=20belt.=20(I=20know=20-=20not=20very=20humble...)
In=20one=20way=20or=20another=20I=20worked=20and=20learned=20from=20SI=20l=
eaders=20(aka=20-=20gurus)=20
like=20Lee=20Ritchey,=20Istvan=20Novak,=20Eric=20Bogatin,=20Scott=20McMorr=
ow=20and=20Howard=20
Johnson=20(and=20others=20that=20due=20to=20a=20senior=20moment=20I=20did=20=
not=20mention=20here=20-=20
sorry)=20I=20gratefully=20owe=20my=20knowledge=20to=20them.
by=20the=20way=20-=20all=20I=20tried=20to=20do=20is=20to=20learn=20about=20=
"real=20world=20picture".
My=20greatest=20lesson=20is=20-=20there=20are=20no=20short=20cuts=20and=20=
no=20rule=20of=20thumbs.=20I=20
read=20daily=20emails=20on=20this=20list=20that=20prove=20this=20point=20o=
ver=20and=20over=20again.
And=20than=20again=20I=20might=20misunderstand=20you...
If=20the=20by=20'real=20world'=20you=20refer=20to=20'rules=20of=20thumbs'=20=
and=20'short=20cuts',=20I=20
will=20strongly=20recommend=20you=20to=20shy=20away=20from=20that=20'real=20=
world'.=20I=20really=20
think=20that=20any=20design=20as=20hypothetic=20or=20rhetorical=20as=20it=20=
is,=20needs=20analysis=20
(the=20subject=20of=20your=20email=20is=20PDS=20analysis...).
Most=20of=20the=20SI=20phenomena=20are=20frequency=20depended.
You=20said=20-=20*=20I'm=20more=20interested=20in=20answers=20like=20"you=20=
might=20see=20a=20waveform=20
of=20xxx=20characteristics=20across=20the=20bypass=20capacitor".=20*
My=20answer=20-=20"you=20might=20see=20a=20waveform=20of=20xxx=20character=
istics=20across=20the=20
bypass=20capacitor".=20;-)
How=20can=20one=20attempt=20giving=20you=20any=20'ball-park'=20numbers=20f=
or=20a=20frequency=20
dependent=20component=20with=20out=20knowing=20what=20the=20frequency=20pa=
rts=20are?
Good=20luck!
Gil
-----=20Original=20Message=20-----=20
From:=20"Bowden,=20Ivor"=20<ibowden@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To:=20<si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent:=20Friday,=20March=2028,=202008=2012:11=20PM
Subject:=20[SI-LIST]=20Re:=20PDS=20analysis?
>=20Hi,
>
>
>=20I'd=20like=20to=20thank=20everyone=20who=20replied=20so=20far,=20off=20=
and=20on=20the=20list.=20I=20
>=20emphasize=20that=20this=20is=20a=20rhetorical=20question,=20it=20doesn=
't=20represent=20any=20
>=20specific=20product.=20I=20also=20emphasize=20that=20I'm=20interested=20=
more=20in=20the=20"real=20
>=20world=20observation"=20part.=20Instead=20of=20answers=20like=20"your=20=
power=20plane=20may=20
>=20have=20a=20resonance=20at=20xxx=20frequency",=20I'm=20more=20intereste=
d=20in=20answers=20like=20
>=20"you=20might=20see=20a=20waveform=20of=20xxx=20characteristics=20acros=
s=20the=20bypass=20
>=20capacitor".=20Also,=20this=20question=20is=20more=20about=20power=20di=
stribution=20than=20
>=20signal=20return=20path.=20All=20answers=20appreciated.
>
>
>
>=20-Ivor
>
>
>
>=20________________________________
>
>=20From:=20Bowden,=20Ivor
>=20Sent:=20Friday,=20March=2028,=202008=207:24=20AM
>=20To:=20si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>=20Subject:=20PDS=20analysis?
>
>
>
>=20Hi=20SI=20Experts,
>
>
>
>=20Say=20you=20have=20a=20typical=20PCB=20with=20modern=20technology=20mi=
x=20of=20CPU,=20DSP,=20DDR,=20
>=20GIGE,=20PCIE,=20etc.=20Say=20it=20is=20a=20multi-layer=20stackup=20in=20=
the=20form=20of=20
>=20GND-SIG-SIG-GND=20sets,=20with=20the=20power=20distribution=20centered=
=20in=20the=20stackup=20
>=20as=20solid=20ground=20plane=20-=20split=20power=20plane=20-=20split=20=
power=20plane=20-=20solid=20
>=20ground=20plane,=20using=201oz=20copper=20and=203.5=20mil=20dielectric.=
=20Assuming=20the=20split=20
>=20power=20planes=20utilize=20sufficient=20area=20to=20keep=20the=20point=
=20to=20point=20inductance=20
>=20and=20resistance=20to=20reasonable=20values,=20and=200.1uF=20ceramic=20=
bypass=20caps=20are=20
>=20evenly=20placed=20at=20device=20pins,=20and=20bulk=20capacitance=20is=20=
placed=20as=20needed,=20
>=20would=20there=20be=20reason=20to=20expect=20any=20problems,=20such=20a=
s=20plane=20resonance,=20
>=20etc?=20If=20so,=20what=20would=20be=20the=20observable=20real=20world=20=
manifestations,=20in=20
>=20terms=20of=20circuit=20performance=20and=20power=20pins=20scope=20wave=
forms?=20Would=20there=20
>=20be=20significant=20advantage=20to=20analyzing=20this=20PDS,=20or=20sho=
uld=20following=20this=20
>=20"industry=20standard=20practice"=20for=20PCB=20PDS=20be=20sufficient=20=
to=20expect=20robust=20
>=20behavior?
>
>
>
>=20Thanks,
>
>
>
>=20Ivor=20Bowden
>
>=20Senior=20Hardware=20Engineer
>
>=20Curtiss-Wright=20Controls=20Embedded=20Computing
>
>=2010201=20Wateridge=20Circle
>
>=20Suite=20300
>
>=20San=20Diego,=20CA=2092121
>
>=20858-452-0020=20x=204405
>
>=20ibowden@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
>
>=20______________________________________________________________________=
_
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