[SI-LIST] Re: Measurement/Simulation Correlation
- From: Cristian Gozzi <cristian.gozzi@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: balaseven@xxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 10:21:54 +0200
Hi folks
Are there any vias in your path?
Any other discontinuities?
Did you try to modify general option of SIwave? As:
1) void mesh
2) non funcional pad removal
3) trace return current
I aree With other si members about dielectric material properties Vs freq
and rougness...
But if you are getting some resonance on insertion Loss, i will more Take
a look at vias in your path
Regards
Cris
Il giorno 09/giu/2012 08:39, "bala" <balaseven@xxxxxxxxx> ha scritto:
> Hi,
> Material dk df value should be calculated using resin content value...u
> will c some difference b/w actual value and the value calculated by
> considering resin content... consider fiber weave effect also.this might
> help...
> Bala
> SI/PI Engineer,
> Wipro.
> On Jun 9, 2012 5:53 AM, <Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ken,
> > Thanks for your feedback. I understand that it is very difficult to get
> > accurate material information from the Fab house. That is why I have
> > tried tweaking them during the simulations. Only I don't expect the Fab
> > house values to be off by an order of magnitude. Anyway I will try
> > tweaking them further.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > Ravinder Ajmani
> > HGST, a Western Digital company
> > ravinder.ajmani@xxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Ken Cantrell" <ken@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > 06/08/2012 04:54 PM
> >
> > To
> > <Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx>, "'Antonis Orphanou'" <orphanou@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > cc
> > <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject
> > RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Measurement/Simulation Correlation
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ravinder,
> > It is extremely hard to define the actual Dk and Df from the information
> > provided by a Fab house. Unless they are using something like the SPP
> > technique to determine those values. Google Single Pulse Propagation
> > Technique. It was implemented by IBM a number of years ago, and was the
> > brain-child of Alina Deutsch who worked for IBM at the time. The point
> > being, there's a lot of wiggle room there.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
> > Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 5:40 PM
> > To: Antonis Orphanou
> > Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Measurement/Simulation Correlation
> >
> >
> > Hi Antonis,
> > Thanks for your response. I have not measured the material properties.
> > The Fab has provided me the Dk and loss tangent values of the material
> > used by them. I also adjusted the PCB trace geometry and Dk value in the
> > design database as per the measured stackup and trace parameters and
> > impedance. Next I tweaked the loss tangent to bring the simulation
> > results closer to the measurement results, but it does not help much. I
> > also don't see any passivity or causality issue with the simulation or
> the
> > measurement.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > Ravinder Ajmani
> > HGST, a Western Digital company
> > ravinder.ajmani@xxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Antonis Orphanou" <orphanou@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > 06/08/2012 04:17 PM
> >
> > To
> > "Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx" <Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx>,
> > "si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > cc
> >
> > Subject
> > RE: [SI-LIST] Measurement/Simulation Correlation
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > One important parameter in correlating insertion loss at higher
> > frequencies using simulation tools is material passivity and material
> > representation.
> > The frequency dependency of your material can affect your correlation.
> > Usually though the standard material representation in the simulation
> > tools is consistent with Kramers-Kronig passivity and causality
> > requirements but the values for er and loss tangent is the big question.
> > In addition I agree with you that roughness will also affect the
> > correlation as well at higher frequencies. If you have measured material
> > properties you can use those??
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On Behalf Of Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 3:59 PM
> > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Measurement/Simulation Correlation
> >
> > Hi Experts,
> > I have built a simple test board for correlating the simulated
> S-Parameter
> > data (extracted using Ansoft SIwave) with VNA measurements. I get good
> > Insertion Loss correlation up to 12 GHz, buy beyond that the measured
> > Insertion Loss drops more significantly than the simulated data. I have
> > tried tweaking the dielectric loss, but it does not help much. Could
> this
> > added loss be due to surface roughness, which I have not taken in to
> > account, or the tool limitation. I do get better correlation with the
> > Mixed-Mode Insertion Loss (within 2 dB up to 20 GHz).
> >
> > I may add that my colleague generated S-parameter data on the same design
> > using Agilent Momentum, which correlates well up to 16 GHz, but also
> shows
> > resonances that don't show up in the measurements. It also correlates
> > well with Mixed-Mode Insertion Loss.
> >
> > I will appreciate any lead in to this.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > Ravinder Ajmani
> > HGST, a Western Digital company
> > ravinder.ajmani@xxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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