And that is what I have done. Looked at relatives, studied how they grew up, listened to the owners of the stud, whom they bred, and then bred my bitch and I watch now. I am getting what the stud owners said would likely happen, and time is on my side. In the meantime I have 3 great fun pets until they are older. I am gambling, yes, but that is what I have to do. sheila Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx wrote: In a message dated 12/15/2006 6:28:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, helen@xxxxxxxxxxx writes: What about the newbies that didn=92t get a good one, went to shows and mayb= e got a 4th out of 4 and spent money to boot. The breeder or handler tell = them when the dog matures at three or so, he will be a winner. Over the ne= xt couple of years the dog takes a ribbon here and there but not much else.= Then on top of that they hear from the breeder/or handler, the show was f= ixed. How many new people do we lose right there I wonder. Helen I think it should be made apparent to "newbies" that despite everyone's best guess NOT ALL NICE PUPPIES GROW INTO STARS. And when they don't IT'S NOT ANYBODY'S FAULT. (It should also be made apparent that if you are REALLY a "newbie", no one is going to trust you with a star until you've paid your dues. I remember once someone called about a litter and said he wanted the "pick male". OK, I said. Go buy a nice bitch. Grow her out. Hope she is healthy, OFAs, is worth breeding, conceives and has a healthy litter. When you are covered in blood and gore in the whelping box, pick away!) Despite the best intentions, growing out a puppy is a gamble. Now, if I have a few generations and I know what the good relatives looked like young, it's not as much of a gamble as if I'm looking at bloodlines I'm unfamiliar with, but it's still a gamble. If you want a show dog, don't start with a baby puppy, or if you insist, don't blame anyone when the hopes and dreams you had aren't fulfilled. Consider the price you paid for your show prospect "puppy" over and above what you would have paid for a nice companion puppy gambling money, because that's all it is. Kathy member GSDCA, DVGSDC three generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions live here! visit _Pine Hill German Shepherd Dogs_ (http://www.geocities.com/pinehillgsds/) ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================