[ SHOWGSD-L ] Standard backlines....
- From: "Carolyn" <marhaven@xxxxxxx>
- To: <pmick12@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <GrnRam415@xxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 10:19:49 -0800
---- Original Message ----- From: Peggy *
Peggy writes:Laura's right about the public perception of the breed. Most of
the judges on this list
are onlyGSD judges...the others are probably on the Judges email list...and the
other day, a judge
who is obviously preparing to apply for Shepherds came on and, in a sort of
oblique way, showed
that she has the same perception...here is part of what she had to say: :"I
would like to "listen" to
a discussion of the topline of the German Shepherd.
...then she talked about Frank Dusek, which is what precipitated my question
yesterday.........and
then she went on: "after 9/11, I noticed that the dogs policing O'Hare
airport were also of the
more level backline. I stopped 3 different teams and asked the human the origin
of the dog, and
why. All 3 were imports "because the American German Shepherd cannot survive
the cement floors".
***************************************************************************************
* Carolyn's opinion:
Those "BLANKET STATEMENTS" that come from those with the German lines are
what is
causing the public perception of the American Bred dogs having problems.
The man handling
the dog at O'Hare airport likely knows nothing about the Standard, or
bloodlines, or American
Bred dogs as compared to German bred dogs......he is only repeating what he
is told!!
( likely by the source supplying the dogs ) <G>
This is the kind of "MARKETING" that is causing the faction and the public
perception of
Am.Bred as being crippled sickly dogs.
American Breeders don't take up the space on their web sites to bother
criticizing the German
Bred dogs........but that cannot be said for most involved in German lines.
A good American Bred dog can handle anything any good German bred dog
can.....but the
tool of perception of a crippled dog has caused this mindset and faction
between the two.
Most American Bred breeders don't take the time or space to slam the other
lines!!
* Peggy:.......
I have a sweeps coming up, so it is time for me to attempt to resolve the
issue bouncing in my head.
Bottom line is the STANDARD. The STANDARD reads:
Topline The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back
is straight, very strongly
developed without sag or roach and relatively short.
OK. So what does "level" mean? Spira says "Level back - One in which the
height at the withers is
identical to that over the loins" Yes, loin, not croup."Talk" to me please
German Shepherd people.
It seems to me that per the STANDARD, Frank was correct, but what I see in
the ring is soooooooo
different."
*******************************************************************************************
* Carolyn:
I think the problem and disagreements ...even among ourselves ...concerning
the topline of a
German Shepherd Dog lies in the quote you have from the Standard itself on
your post.
i.e. "the withers are higher than and sloping into a level back".
continuing ..."the back is straight"...
Okay....if the higher wither "SLOPES"....onto a "LEVEL back".
OOOPS...that's TWO ANGLES!! .
( slope and level. That would cause a 'junction' ) the next sentence
begins...."the back is straight".
AND THEN.... with the croup..... it continues at yet another angle as it says
" long and gradually SLOPING".....OOOPS...another angle off the LEVEL back?!
Visualize....sloping wither, level back, sloping croup....I read that as
three angles...3 junctions.
( no drop of water will slowly roll off that kind of backline ) <G>
Go ahead...use a ruler and see if you can get three angles without a point of
'junction'.....??
Personally I hate to see a three piece topline with the three different
angles!
I will never be convinced me that the "banana back"....or "carp back" or
"roach back" we see
in the German bred dogs is what the Standard calls for either.....nor is the
3 angle topline this
wording describes. This is the part where interpretation comes into play I
guess.....
As Breeders...."we" resolve this description in our breeding program by
trying to only breed
the topline that is solid, with a constant subtle "straight-line slope"
from the beginning
of the wither to the croup.....no sag, no angle change, no hump and no
breaks......and therefore
no wasted action as the rear drive transmits that propelling drive from the
back to the front....
propelling the dog forward from the rear.
* Peggy:
Someone asked this person to do a sweeps, so she is talking to Shepherd
folks...but she doesn't understand the topline, the rear, etc.....this is
something we have to do to educate the public. Just last week we had the
discussion right here on this list, too, amongst ourselves............
The public and many judges think the breed is crippled and that at best,
doesn't conform to the Standard.
There has to be something we can do about it....................Peggy
*Carolyn: Educate ourselves!! I miss Tom Castriota's "BREED BETTER
DOGS"!!!!!! <G>
P.S. I wonder if Saluki people put up with this with the "hip bones" or
Bull Dog people with....the
"entire dog" <G> or Bassett breeders with "the legs".....or Daschund
breeders with the "long back"
or Sharpei breeders with the "wrinkles". Why do we feel so defensive for
this Breed? What is
'right' about people who look at GENEVA and look at a Black Lab and want them
to be the same??
Tell them they ARE pets because they don't have the slope.....they don't need
to worry....<G>
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxx
www.marhaven.com
GrnRam415@xxxxxxx wrote:
>Bob,
>I can answer this. I work with many, many GSD's in my obedience classes.
>The GSD is a popular Breed, no argument about that. Why? Because people
are
>looking for a dog with presence, a dog who will protect their family and
>property and be good with the kids. A dog who is intelligent and doesn't
eat/chew
>everything in sight. The GSD CAN and DOES do this.
>
>However, the general public does not like or trust the overly angulated
>American line show dogs. And, the general public wants the classic blk/tan.
It
>reminds them of the dog they had as a kid. They also want the 120 lb GSD
they
>remember, right! It looked that big when the people were kids, LOL! They
>don't want sables or dark dogs, period.
>
>The dogs Jimmy shows that are successful at Eukanuba or even Westminster fit
>the ideal the general public wants. Jimmy shows mostly AB shows, does he
not?
> Geneva is the exception. When I watched her I was impressed. No paddling
>front feet, nice easy gait on a loose lead, strong back and clean
coming/going.
> Jimmy presented her beautifully. And that is what the general public sees
>and wants. Not the racing, spooky, tiny bitches and even dogs one sees in
the
>specialty rings these days.
>
>When I get inquiries on my puppies, most do not want American lines. They
>want German lines. People equate American lines with health problems. A
lack
>of education? Most definately. But we don't do much about that, do we? At
>shows, people are snubbed by breeders, too busy to answer questions. Most
show
>dogs are worked in isolation. They aren't really taken out in public to get
to
>know people and be seen by the general public. So how can we expect people
to
>want to see our dogs as opposed to the German lines that advertise heavily
>and have their dogs doing everything?
>
>You can't get people interested in showing dogs unless the GSD folks are
>welcoming, educate people and give them a reason to buy a show dog. Don't
see
>much of that and neither does the general public. The looks I see when some
poor
>soul tries to show a German dog in an AKC show is just pathetic. Nobody
>talks to them or explains why. They just give them nasty looks or ignore
them.
>It doesn't stop there but that is a whole different subject. The moral is,
if
>we want people to show, we have to give them a reason to spend good money.
>Otherwise, a nice family pet and protector is good enough for 99.9 percent
of the
>GSD owners. JMHO
>
>
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POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - URL temporarily deleted due to AOL issues
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