Christine and all, We saw a dog, OUTSTANDING sidegaiter, clean, xint proportions, beautiful coat,topline, etc etc, that was" MEASURED" in the ring by a very prominant judge against the leg as though "oh too small" when the dog STICKED measured was 25 and 1/2....he out gaited most...but was put behind oversized males . Now should a dog that is dead nuts standard size lose to a bigger dog, even when he out moves him?...NO. but such is the show ring these days. This is reality guys. But height, like long coats is penalized heavily....even though height is a GUIDELINE. However I would NEVER include, missing teeth , faulty temperament, lack of secondary sex characteristics, lack of movement as 'Trivial" (I know you were only making a point Christine, no problem) But theycan HARDLY compare to a dog that may be somewhat above or below standard size. The items such as those listed above would be a NO GO in our kennel and most people we know. I will take a bit above standard over serious FAULTS OF GAIT OR TEMPERAMENT, or even missing teeth which genetically come back to bite you in the butt, (pardon the pun) generations down the line. We in the breed are seeing MISSING TEETH lots, poor temperament, and LACK OF SECONDARY SEX CHARACTERIISTICS, and LACK OF MOVEMENT , interestingly all in some of the same lines....in the breed, along with HUGE health issues....AND WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT WANT TO MINCE ABOUT SIZE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER??? PULEEEEEEZE. When we start tearing down dogs based on height alone, we are in deep sH**. Let's start with the real issues, TEMPERAMENT, HEALTH, BREED TYPE, WORK ETHIC AND HOW ABOUT PROGENY CLASSES FOR SELECTS? If we want to get serious about "bettering the breed" how about INSTEAD OF WORRYING ABOUT HEIGHT .. HOW ABOUT DRUG AND DYE TESTING FOR ALL NATIONAL WINNERS?... JUST TO BE DEVILS ADVOCATE. SOUNDS GREAT TO ME...BUT WILL IT HAPPEN ??? DOUBT IT...IT EXPOSES TOO MANY PEOPLE . So much for worrying about our breed . So the whole "OMG that 's a really BIG dog or a really SMALL dog" kind of looks inane in the shadow of SUCH LARGER ISSUES. imho Kathy > ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================