[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Inbreeding -
- From: barbara17236@xxxxxxx
- To: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx, Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 09:49:04 -0400 (EDT)
I have been trying to read all the posts on this subject but my mailbox is
loaded. I have a few things to add, though.
Believe it or not, I have had more issues show up in outcross breedings than
line or inbred litters. Based on Dr Geroge Padgett's logic, it takes 16 or 17
pups, from the same parents, to rule out issues. So, doing one inbred litter,
resulting in 8 pups, may not show anything. You would need to repeat ANY
breeding (out, in, or line) to get to that "magic" number. Of course, "bad"
things can and will show up in a litter of 8 pups but just because your litter
of 8 pups ended up healthy, doesn't rule out the possibilities that there but
not showing yet. How many of you have repeated a breeding only to have things
show up that didn't in the original breeding? I know this has happened to me
several times. Or, how many breeders won't repeat a breeding because a repeat
breeding never turns out as good as the first?
Inbreedings - I handle these by providing my buyers with a lifetime health
guarantee against genetic defects. Hips and elbows are guaranteed until 26
months, and all of my buyers are encouraged to get the hips and elbows done at
24 months so I will know. And, all of my pups are usually sold on LTD papers
and spay/neuter contracts to protect the breed.
Each of us are responseable for doing the right thing, and to own up to our
mistakes. What works in one breed may not work in GSDs. We all need to be
open about our dogs, and our lines so that the GSD breed can survive.
Just some thoughts
Barb H - PA
-----Original Message-----
From: Pinehillgsds <Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx>
To: marhaven <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; SegerWind <SegerWind@xxxxxxx>;
lindenhillgsd <lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx>; spotted101 <spotted101@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: showgsd-l <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 9:20 am
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Inbreeding -
OK....sigh....I'll try again.
nd for the record, I don't just outcross. I'll occasionally linebreed
nd I have done the Brackett formula, a nice CH bitch back to her CH
rand-sire. 11 puppies, no health issue, but I lost pigment and bone so didn't
hold anything back and didn't repeat.
ike mentioned inbreeding as a "tool" to see where your breeding program
as going, in other words to check and see what health issues cropped up, and
mentioned he did that w/ the boys he offered to the fancy. I'm
araphrasing, Mike, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't have time to go back
nd
ind the exact post again.
agree, that is a way to find what genetic "bads" are in your/his/mine,
nybody's lines. I'll also point out that ALL pedigrees have genetic
bads". Yours, Mike's, mine....EVERYBODY'S.
he problems with inbreeding to test a line, for me, are numerous. First,
don't have the capacity to grow out entire litters, which I would feel
bligated to do since many of the issues that plague our breed don't show up
ntil later. Second, statistically, one inbred litter doesn't prove a heck
f a lot, you'd have to repeat a number of times to even come close to
eeling secure that a genetic "bad" that once had been in a pedigree was no
onger surfacing. Finally, we can all look at our pedigrees and know where
he issues are (or we should be able to). Wouldn't you agree then that
nbreeding increases the odds for that particular issue (or issues) to show up
n the resulting litter????
o the odds for "issues" INCREASE w/ an inbred litter, and personally,
ince the puppies I don't hold back go to companion homes and for the reasons I
mentioned above, I don't need to go there.
ou ask " Why is DM, Immune problems, UAP and epilepsy
r whatever....questioned on ONLY an inbreeding?"
ctually, they should be questioned in EVERY litter. I singled those out
ecause you really don't find out about them until later, unlike mega, which
you'd know at 4-5-6 weeks and something like UAP which you'd know at 4-5
onths, which I also mentioned in earlier posts.
ou ask " What would you think if someone hit you with
battery of questions about YOUR breeding..."
elieve me, they do and they should.
n closing, (and I'm done with this) can bad things happen w/ an outcrossed
litter???? Absolutely. No denying it. Especially if you don't have all
he info when researching pedigrees. Especially when some pedigrees are so
ight they really aren't outcrossed litters at all.
e? I don't need a "tool" that badly. I can look at my pedigrees, know
here the issues lie and breed AWAY from them, not double up on them by
nbreeding.
athy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
elebrating generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions
visit _http://www.pinehillgsds.com/_ (http://www.pinehillgsds.com/)
n a message dated 9/8/2010 10:31:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
arhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
OK......maybe you think I am "twisting your words"......but look at the
drill' of questions and the
any question marks in what you are asking simply because a breeder says
hey DO inbreed
heir studs occasionally.
y entire point is...... ( please read ).........do you NOT think the
ame questions are JUST as
mportant in an OUTCROSS breeding? Why is DM, Immune proglems, UAP
nd epilepsy
r whatever....questioned on ONLY an inbreeding? What would you think
f someone hit you with
battery of questions about YOUR breeding program because you only
utcross?
G>
y the same token..do you not think you should grow out litters because
hey are .... OUTCROSSES?
arolyn _marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
www.Marhaven.com_ (http://www.marhaven.com/)
arolyn, you are twisting my words. I'm not insisting a breeder does
nything. Mike and Jess both said
hey inbred their dogs that they stand at stud.
Given the fact that I can't find a single 4 generation pedigree that
oesn't have SOME genetic "bads",
your pedigrees, my pedigrees or anybody else's, and given the fact that
nbreeding not only enhances
he good, it enhances the bad...in fact Mike freely admits using
nbreeding as a "tool" to see if a
rogram is in the right direction... I simply asked, and I'm quoting from
Y post:
"OK, here's a question. Are you growing out the entire litters and to
hat age? How old is a dog
efore you are comfortable issues won't crop up...you figure 4 weeks
efore you notice mega,
-5 months for UAP, 2-3 years for epilepsy...but what about toxic gut,
DV, immune problems and DM?????
How old before these "test cases" go into a pet home???"
ou'll notice I'm asking a question, not insisting anything.
Not sure when you came into the thread, if you were on it at the beginning
or not, but another of my
oints to Mike was that if he did or does an inbreeding, statistically,
ne good result as far as no
ealth issues cropping up doesn't prove too much. Statistically, you'd
ave to do a breeding
uite a few times.
athy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
,
marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx) writes:
but that I think it's a little unfair to insist that a breeder that does
ll of the above should grow a litter out
ntil they are middle age to prove they are all fine and healthy
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POST is Copyrighted 2010. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its
administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in
any post.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org
NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/
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