[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Inbreeding -
- From: Jessica MacMillan <spotted101@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx>, <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <segerwind@xxxxxxx>, <lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 08:23:25 -0500
But aren't GSD pedigrees so tight as it is, that most of the genes are flushed
out anyways? Wonder if in-breedings are really necessary anymore
Playing devils advocate here!
Jessica MacMillan
No Frills Dog Bathing Service & Design
Paisley Dals (www.paisleydals.com)
& The Shepherd Girls (Simmie, CGC, TDI, TC, HIC & Pepper, HIC)
Member of: DCA, GSDCA & GTCDC
From: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 09:19:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Inbreeding -
To: marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; SegerWind@xxxxxxx; lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx;
spotted101@xxxxxxxxxxx
CC: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
OK....sigh....I'll try again.
And for the record, I don't just outcross. I'll occasionally linebreed and I
have done the Brackett formula, a nice CH bitch back to her CH grand-sire. 11
puppies, no health issue, but I lost pigment and bone so didn't hold anything
back and didn't repeat.
Mike mentioned inbreeding as a "tool" to see where your breeding program was
going, in other words to check and see what health issues cropped up, and
mentioned he did that w/ the boys he offered to the fancy. I'm paraphrasing,
Mike, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't have time to go back and find the
exact post again.
I agree, that is a way to find what genetic "bads" are in your/his/mine,
anybody's lines. I'll also point out that ALL pedigrees have genetic "bads".
Yours, Mike's, mine....EVERYBODY'S.
The problems with inbreeding to test a line, for me, are numerous. First, I
don't have the capacity to grow out entire litters, which I would feel
obligated to do since many of the issues that plague our breed don't show up
until later. Second, statistically, one inbred litter doesn't prove a heck of
a lot, you'd have to repeat a number of times to even come close to feeling
secure that a genetic "bad" that once had been in a pedigree was no longer
surfacing. Finally, we can all look at our pedigrees and know where the issues
are (or we should be able to). Wouldn't you agree then that inbreeding
increases the odds for that particular issue (or issues) to show up in the
resulting litter????
So the odds for "issues" INCREASE w/ an inbred litter, and personally, since
the puppies I don't hold back go to companion homes and for the reasons I
mentioned above, I don't need to go there.
You ask " Why is DM, Immune problems, UAP and epilepsy
or whatever....questioned on ONLY an inbreeding?"
Actually, they should be questioned in EVERY litter. I singled those out
because you really don't find out about them until later, unlike mega, which
you'd know at 4-5-6 weeks and something like UAP which you'd know at 4-5
months, which I also mentioned in earlier posts.
You ask " What would you think if someone hit you with
a battery of questions about YOUR breeding..."
Believe me, they do and they should.
In closing, (and I'm done with this) can bad things happen w/ an outcrossed
litter???? Absolutely. No denying it. Especially if you don't have all the
info when researching pedigrees. Especially when some pedigrees are so tight
they really aren't outcrossed litters at all.
Me? I don't need a "tool" that badly. I can look at my pedigrees, know where
the issues lie and breed AWAY from them, not double up on them by inbreeding.
Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
Celebrating generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions
visit http://www.pinehillgsds.com/
In a message dated 9/8/2010 10:31:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
OK......maybe you think I am "twisting your words"......but look at the 'drill'
of questions and the
many question marks in what you are asking simply because a breeder says they
DO inbreed
their studs occasionally.
My entire point is...... ( please read ).........do you NOT think the same
questions are JUST as
important in an OUTCROSS breeding? Why is DM, Immune proglems, UAP and
epilepsy
or whatever....questioned on ONLY an inbreeding? What would you think if
someone hit you with
a battery of questions about YOUR breeding program because you only outcross?
<G>
By the same token..do you not think you should grow out litters because they
are .... OUTCROSSES?
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.Marhaven.com
Carolyn, you are twisting my words. I'm not insisting a breeder does
anything. Mike and Jess both said
they inbred their dogs that they stand at stud.
Given the fact that I can't find a single 4 generation pedigree that doesn't
have SOME genetic "bads",
your pedigrees, my pedigrees or anybody else's, and given the fact that
inbreeding not only enhances
the good, it enhances the bad...in fact Mike freely admits using inbreeding as
a "tool" to see if a
program is in the right direction... I simply asked, and I'm quoting from MY
post:
"OK, here's a question. Are you growing out the entire litters and to what
age? How old is a dog
before you are comfortable issues won't crop up...you figure 4 weeks before
you notice mega,
4-5 months for UAP, 2-3 years for epilepsy...but what about toxic gut, GDV,
immune problems and DM?????
How old before these "test cases" go into a pet home???"
You'll notice I'm asking a question, not insisting anything.
Not sure when you came into the thread, if you were on it at the beginning or
not, but another of my
points to Mike was that if he did or does an inbreeding, statistically, one
good result as far as no
health issues cropping up doesn't prove too much. Statistically, you'd have
to do a breeding
quite a few times.
Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
,
marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
but that I think it's a little unfair to insist that a breeder that does all
of the above should grow a litter out
until they are middle age to prove they are all fine and healthy
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