[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Inbreeding -
- From: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx
- To: marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, SegerWind@xxxxxxx, lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx, spotted101@xxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 09:19:42 EDT
OK....sigh....I'll try again.
And for the record, I don't just outcross. I'll occasionally linebreed
and I have done the Brackett formula, a nice CH bitch back to her CH
grand-sire. 11 puppies, no health issue, but I lost pigment and bone so
didn't
hold anything back and didn't repeat.
Mike mentioned inbreeding as a "tool" to see where your breeding program
was going, in other words to check and see what health issues cropped up, and
mentioned he did that w/ the boys he offered to the fancy. I'm
paraphrasing, Mike, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't have time to go back
and
find the exact post again.
I agree, that is a way to find what genetic "bads" are in your/his/mine,
anybody's lines. I'll also point out that ALL pedigrees have genetic
"bads". Yours, Mike's, mine....EVERYBODY'S.
The problems with inbreeding to test a line, for me, are numerous. First,
I don't have the capacity to grow out entire litters, which I would feel
obligated to do since many of the issues that plague our breed don't show up
until later. Second, statistically, one inbred litter doesn't prove a heck
of a lot, you'd have to repeat a number of times to even come close to
feeling secure that a genetic "bad" that once had been in a pedigree was no
longer surfacing. Finally, we can all look at our pedigrees and know where
the issues are (or we should be able to). Wouldn't you agree then that
inbreeding increases the odds for that particular issue (or issues) to show up
in the resulting litter????
So the odds for "issues" INCREASE w/ an inbred litter, and personally,
since the puppies I don't hold back go to companion homes and for the reasons I
mentioned above, I don't need to go there.
You ask " Why is DM, Immune problems, UAP and epilepsy
or whatever....questioned on ONLY an inbreeding?"
Actually, they should be questioned in EVERY litter. I singled those out
because you really don't find out about them until later, unlike mega, which
you'd know at 4-5-6 weeks and something like UAP which you'd know at 4-5
months, which I also mentioned in earlier posts.
You ask " What would you think if someone hit you with
a battery of questions about YOUR breeding..."
Believe me, they do and they should.
In closing, (and I'm done with this) can bad things happen w/ an outcrossed
litter???? Absolutely. No denying it. Especially if you don't have all
the info when researching pedigrees. Especially when some pedigrees are so
tight they really aren't outcrossed litters at all.
Me? I don't need a "tool" that badly. I can look at my pedigrees, know
where the issues lie and breed AWAY from them, not double up on them by
inbreeding.
Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
Celebrating generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions
visit _http://www.pinehillgsds.com/_ (http://www.pinehillgsds.com/)
In a message dated 9/8/2010 10:31:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
OK......maybe you think I am "twisting your words"......but look at the
'drill' of questions and the
many question marks in what you are asking simply because a breeder says
they DO inbreed
their studs occasionally.
My entire point is...... ( please read ).........do you NOT think the
same questions are JUST as
important in an OUTCROSS breeding? Why is DM, Immune proglems, UAP
and epilepsy
or whatever....questioned on ONLY an inbreeding? What would you think
if someone hit you with
a battery of questions about YOUR breeding program because you only
outcross?
<G>
By the same token..do you not think you should grow out litters because
they are .... OUTCROSSES?
Carolyn _marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
_www.Marhaven.com_ (http://www.marhaven.com/)
Carolyn, you are twisting my words. I'm not insisting a breeder does
anything. Mike and Jess both said
they inbred their dogs that they stand at stud.
Given the fact that I can't find a single 4 generation pedigree that
doesn't have SOME genetic "bads",
your pedigrees, my pedigrees or anybody else's, and given the fact that
inbreeding not only enhances
the good, it enhances the bad...in fact Mike freely admits using
inbreeding as a "tool" to see if a
program is in the right direction... I simply asked, and I'm quoting from
MY post:
"OK, here's a question. Are you growing out the entire litters and to
what age? How old is a dog
before you are comfortable issues won't crop up...you figure 4 weeks
before you notice mega,
4-5 months for UAP, 2-3 years for epilepsy...but what about toxic gut,
GDV, immune problems and DM?????
How old before these "test cases" go into a pet home???"
You'll notice I'm asking a question, not insisting anything.
Not sure when you came into the thread, if you were on it at the beginning
or not, but another of my
points to Mike was that if he did or does an inbreeding, statistically,
one good result as far as no
health issues cropping up doesn't prove too much. Statistically, you'd
have to do a breeding
quite a few times.
Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
,
_marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx) writes:
but that I think it's a little unfair to insist that a breeder that does
all of the above should grow a litter out
until they are middle age to prove they are all fine and healthy
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