Sorry Carolyn I do not believe you ever answered the question you raised here? Yes you are twisting your words without a solid concrete response to the questions I posed to you?? Can I respectfully ask why you cannot answer the questions I posed to you? Thanks, Steven Home of Asgard's Contezza In a message dated 9/8/2010 9:32:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time, marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes: OK......maybe you think I am "twisting your words"......but look at the 'drill' of questions and the many question marks in what you are asking simply because a breeder says they DO inbreed their studs occasionally. My entire point is...... ( please read ).........do you NOT think the same questions are JUST as important in an OUTCROSS breeding? Why is DM, Immune proglems, UAP and epilepsy or whatever....questioned on ONLY an inbreeding? What would you think if someone hit you with a battery of questions about YOUR breeding program because you only outcross? <G> By the same token..do you not think you should grow out litters because they are .... OUTCROSSES? Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.Marhaven.com Carolyn, you are twisting my words. I'm not insisting a breeder does anything. Mike and Jess both said they inbred their dogs that they stand at stud. Given the fact that I can't find a single 4 generation pedigree that doesn't have SOME genetic "bads", your pedigrees, my pedigrees or anybody else's, and given the fact that inbreeding not only enhances the good, it enhances the bad...in fact Mike freely admits using inbreeding as a "tool" to see if a program is in the right direction... I simply asked, and I'm quoting from MY post: "OK, here's a question. Are you growing out the entire litters and to what age? How old is a dog before you are comfortable issues won't crop up...you figure 4 weeks before you notice mega, 4-5 months for UAP, 2-3 years for epilepsy...but what about toxic gut, GDV, immune problems and DM????? How old before these "test cases" go into a pet home???" You'll notice I'm asking a question, not insisting anything. Not sure when you came into the thread, if you were on it at the beginning or not, but another of my points to Mike was that if he did or does an inbreeding, statistically, one good result as far as no health issues cropping up doesn't prove too much. Statistically, you'd have to do a breeding quite a few times. Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC , marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes: but that I think it's a little unfair to insist that a breeder that does all of the above should grow a litter out until they are middle age to prove they are all fine and healthy ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2010. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in any post. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================ ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2010. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in any post. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================