Unfortunately I'm going to weigh in and say this: DREAM ON. "back in the day" people would give a reasonable list of things they would advise bitch owners steer clear on their dogs because he had produced this or that with the bitches he'd been bred to up to that point. Being stupid, I did the same thing when I had the opportunity to have my dog Fly So Free presented in the Red book. I was honest and suggested the people not consider him if they had petite, finer boned bitches, bitches with ear problems in their background, or bitches with short coat. I did elaborate on what he did produce well -- which was exceptional balanced coordinated motion, long necks, above average backs, extreme rear-angulation and lovely style. I suggested the olderstyled, "honkin' brood bitch" types were the ones he did the best with. After all, he had already sired a Grand Victrix, and another son nearing his championship, and several other progeny that has placed highly in their futurities. The dog had less than 8 litters upon his appearance in the Red Book. I think he got a total of 2 other bitches after that point. The general point is... BITCH OWNERS DON'T WANT TO HEAR THE TRUTH. Heaven forbid if your dog has a fault -- afterall, there are so many other stud dogs out there that are faultless. "TOP PRODUCER" doesn't have any meaning anymore -- it's been polluted by people with $$ signs in their visions. When you see a younger dog (4 or less) enter the Red Book for the first time with more than 15 litters -- ASK YOURSELF THIS -- What were these stud dog owners doing? Throwing "Wazoo" after "Wazoo" at this dog in the hopes that a volume of puppies may produce one or two that will bring the next flood of "Wazoo's" to their dog--and of course, the associated $$'s that come with the Wazoo's????? It's all in the numbers-------A dog who produces lower number of litters in his lifetime and high number of good ones --- WITH ACTUAL BIG WINS is a better producer than a dog who has 25-40 litters before 2-3 progeny out of half sisters hit the National and place!!! Or in other words -- TOP PRODUCER actually is a phrase that should be put to dogs that can produce QUALITY... not dogs that have a multitude of quantity before 1-2 puppies came out that were reasonably nice. But then... what the hell do I know. Kathaleen ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================