In a message dated 8/12/2006 10:51:51 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, nancy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes: As I recall ,our breed went through an era, where we breeders were only looking for that super star bitch with the flying side gait. We began to sell the other bitches from breedings as "companion pets" if they were not "show quality": Not too long after that we saw males that began to loose their masculinity and strong male characteristics as these very typey show bitches that were pretty and feminine could not necessairly produce the stallion males. This senario became evident recently in one of our breedings. The bitch was not of show quality but did possess the qualities outlined above safe one - there was insufficient substance. We finished 3 from the litter but we lack substance in one of the males. which will conceiveable keep him from obtaining the Select Title and that's why we advise larger bitches with good substance be bred to him. It would be interesting to hear from others. How Xint Post Nancy. Yes you are right , some of the best qualities come from non show bitches. Let's face it, when some animals are bred for one specific trait, be it side gait, color, size, etc, you often lose the rest of the picture. We have seen this many times with some dogs, awesome sidegait, but may be lacking secondary sex characteristics, pigment, feet, ribbing, temperament, etc, etc. I would rather use a bitch that is healthy with good genetics and mental traits and not show quality as far as the current show ring ideals are concerned , and gain some of what is being lost....like longevity. I may only get another brood bitch the first generation, but when I go back into "show" lines for the next generation, I will have gained many qualities which are lacking . Kathy _www.Victory_ (http:www.Victory) germanshepherds.com We are what we repeatedly do, Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit.-Aristotle Victory...There's Something in a Name ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - URL temporarily deleted due to AOL issues ============================================================================