JimIf it makes you feel any better, I don't think there are many people out there who would feel manipulated in the way Teddy described. Please remember that his opinion is a sample of 1 in a world of 6.5 billion people. You simply suggested the manner by which most people could handle such a situation with a mutually beneficial outcome, which was an intelligent positive approach.
There are many factors that must be analyzed when dealing with people. For example, after posting my last message, it didn't hit me that I should have taken into consideration his cultural background. Maybe wherever he lives, what he described was the accepted manner of handling such problems. Though I must say it seems very unlikely.
Bottom line, don't let a single person's opinion of you cripple you so quickly. I'm sure there are many people in your life that have probably said similar or worse things, and I'm sure that didn't bum you out as much. Likewise, don't let a lister or anyone else leave you in such a vulnerable sate of mind. Teddy is a good guy, but this doesn't make him the authority on human interactions.
Again, I thought your initial suggestion was an intelligent one, and in fact I saved your message because I thought it was well written, and more importantly, it was information I can use now and in the future.
Sincerely, Matthew---- Original Message ----- From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 7:01 AM Subject: Re: linux screen readers Hi Teddy, Reading your below post makes me wish that I had not tried to give you advice on how to get along with other people. If you feel that I was trying to manipulate you with my post, then I apologize because that was not my intent at all. Wow. I really need to take a walk. I am so sad right now. Jim James D Homme, Usability Engineering Highmark Inc. james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx 412-544-1810 "It's more important for me to start to do the right thing than it is to wait until I think I can do it just right." "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxx To om> programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent by: cc programmingblind- bounce@freelists. Subject org Re: linux screen readers 09/14/2007 08:50 AM Please respond to programmingblind@ freelists.org What you describe is manipulation and I don't like it. When somebody does something like that, I know that he does it not because that person really cares about what I do, but because he tries to manipulate me and make me think that he cares about me, while in fact he only cares about him and his needs. If somebody doesn't do that and tells me that he doesn't like what I did, I know that he has its own interests, but at least I can consider that person some more sincere. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 3:35 PM Subject: Re: linux screen readers Hi, Then the first thing you do is thank them for the effort they are putting in. Then offer to help. You may be able to help in a way that you do not know about. Then, after you thank them and offer to help, you politely mention that you feel that something should be improved. Explain how it can be improved. Also explain how the improvement will help you use the product better and give examples of how you will use the improvement. This helps the person understand that you are not just wining about it. Also explain the steps you took to uncover the problem clearly. Just doing that both makes the person feel good about helping you and helps them solve the problems you are having. It is human nature to respond positively when someone acts positively toward you . It is also human nature to respond negatively to someone who is acting negatively toward you. Even when you don't like something, say something positive first. That always helps the person want to help you. Thanks. Jim James D Homme, Usability Engineering Highmark Inc. james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx 412-544-1810 "It's more important for me to start to do the right thing than it is to wait until I think I can do it just right." "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxx To om> programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent by: cc programmingblind- bounce@freelists. Subject org Re: linux screen readers 09/14/2007 08:15 AM Please respond to programmingblind@ freelists.org But what if we can't help, but we still don't like what other guys do? We don't have anything to lose if we say something bad about their work, because it is not helpful for us anyway. But if we say something, maybe they find that there are some persons that don't like their work, and they might want to improve the programs. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:06 PM Subject: Re: linux screen readers Hi, I agree with Matthew for what it's worth. If we offer to help fix the issues and come through with some help, they will be more likely to want to help us. Thanks. Jim James D Homme, Usability Engineering Highmark Inc. james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx 412-544-1810 "It's more important for me to start to do the right thing than it is to wait until I think I can do it just right." "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@char ter.net> To Sent by: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx programmingblind- cc bounce@freelists. org Subject Re: linux screen readers 09/14/2007 02:38 AM Please respond to programmingblind@ freelists.org No, No, No, this is absolutely not the approach to take. This silly approach will absolutely not work to our benefit. This is completely convoluted and very stupid logic to want to start "beating" people once they don't do what you want. Remember, we need something from them, and they need nothing from us, so it behooves us to kindly, very kindly request an ear for a few minutes in order to explain our plight. You must exhaust all resources before getting aggressive. What if after a kind request the other party agrees and begins to help? then all is well and we benefit immensely. On the other hand, what if you start doing stupid things such as getting very aggressive and threatening at the offset then demand help? The other party will not only not want to help you, but they will have a very incorrect view of you and who you represent. Yes, the squeaky gear might get the oil, but we're not talking mechanics here, we're talking human interactions. Gees, Matthew ---- Original Message ----- From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 4:05 PM Subject: Re: linux screen readers
then it sounds like its time for those who are interested to go beat the orca developers vigorously about the head and shoulders with there canes until they give the needed information, eh? smile, I have found quite often that the old saying "the squeaky gear
gets
the oil" is very true I'll even join in some, since I will undoubtedly need some of this knowledge somewhere along the line, though the need hasn't come up yet. take care, inthane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 6:08 AM Subject: Re: linux screen readersFrom what I have seen there're no lists for orca scripting, nor documentation available for it. I do think we should have this list, as we should perhaps have a nvda scripting list, sinse this reader is going really fast in its developement. I guess, however, I can not help writting tutorials about how to script orca, because I even haven't found an explanation about how is the window structure in gnome apps (e.e if there are handles, control ids and the like). This is what I miss, it wouldn't make seense to try to make an app accessible without knowing first what we have in hands to do that. Marlon 2007/9/12, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>:I definately have the impression that Orca and GUI access on Linux have made major strides in progress this past year, so would encourage
anyone
interested to check out this platform. Sun, IBM, and Google, among others, are committed to Linux and have shown genuine interest in accessibility. I think they would welcome feedback from blind people doing GUI application development in that area. Does anyone here happen to know if there is a scripting list for Orca, and if so, how to subscribe? Jamal __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind-- When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for free." Linus Torvalds __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ NOD32 2529 (20070913) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
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