See? I don't consider this a competitive good web design made by a blind. Your sight might look really nice, but if you needed much more time to create it, and then you need other sighted persons to check it now and then in order to be sure you didn't make any mistake, the result is not a web design made by the blind, but a design made in a team. And yes, as I said in a previous discussion on the list on the same subject, a blind person can be a part of a web design team. But if you are a part of a web designers team and you can't do everything, then you cannot be a web designer. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Garaventa To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner Yes, true enough. The problem that I've come across repeatedly is that everything is relative, and you can't please everyone. For instance, it took me a long time to get gutterstar.net to look visually appealing. My goal was to produce a site that was appealing to both sighted and non-sighted users, while preserving accessibility. The difficulty for myself though, was that I lost my site before the internet was ever around (well the localnet was around, but this was mainly bulletin boards...). I've never seen a web page of any sort, so when I was learning CSS and various layout methods, I needed visual feedback to notify me when I was making mistakes. Mistakes are easy to do with CSS, especially when layering and overlapping start to occur. So, I would ask someone to check it out, and they would say "Oh wow! That's awesome!". That was great, it made me feel all fuzzy inside like I had actually done something worth while. Then, I would tell someone else about it, all proud of course, and they would report back "Why are all of your web pages that horrid brown color? It makes them look like... Well... You know..." And my first overreaction is "What the hell is wrong with JAWS! I checked the bloody colors when I wrote the damned thing..." and so on... Well, it took a lot of trial and error, but eventually I got the hang of it, and can now fairly accurately determine what the consequences of various code implementations will be. Unfortunately though, I really wouldn't have been able to get to this point if I hadn't received visual feedback during the learning process. Being blind sucks, but it's a condition like any other. If visual feedback will aid me in accomplishing a task, I'll be the first one to seek it out. I've learned the hard way that being too proud to do so, is a lonely and fruitless occupation. ----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:07 AM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner Yes I also like when the sighted or the blind have complaints, because most of the times I know what I need to change for making the site look better. But the problem is that sometimes the complaints sound like "Oh, but that page is not nice. Please make it to looke nicely. Can't you?", or "That stock chart has the lines too proximate, and I can't see them very clear", or "those 3 charts with volumes and the other 2 indicators should be put in the same image below the main candlestick chart", and so on. Well, those charts are generated dynamicly, by the program, and by a program that was not made by me, because it would take a very long time just to make that program that generates the graphic, and I need just to change it in order to "look better", but I cannot see the distances between the lines or other things like that, (like a sighted person easily can), and I don't have the time for making studies about how to do that, because this is a very very small part of the job I need to do. I know that a blind person that stays at home the entire day in front of the computer, has the necessary time and power to study and make tests in order to do this kind of complicated things, but even in that case, they won't be able to do anything without having some sighted help for telling them how the result looks. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Garaventa To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:33 PM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner That's alright, I haven't actually received any complaints. If I ever do though, it simply indicates an area for improvement. I've always been open about this to my clients, and they appear to appreciate it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:05 PM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner You cannot ignore the complaints if the complaints come from the customers, because they might choose to work with one of your competitors. And most of the times the sighted users don't have any complaints, but just don't like and just don't use a site that they don't like. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Garaventa To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:59 PM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner Hey, I'm rather pleased with the layout of gutterstar.net... I'm pretty sure the layout looks appealing, I know I've put enough work into it for me to believe this anyway... All I have to do is ignore the complaints? ----- Original Message ----- From: Darragh Ó Héiligh To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 12:22 PM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner Quote: > Please tell us where can we see the web page made by that blind guy, and I > will tell you if a blind person can do it without sighted help. > I've seen many messages on this list telling how cool web pages can a > blind > > do, with with no single example. > > Octavian > take a look at: www.nickykealy.com www.kenoheiligh.ie also look at a cached version of nvm.ie and digitaldarragh.com my own website is down at the moment as I'm restructuring it and the online version was getting in the way. I'm by no means a designer on par with a sighted person but it can definitly be done. it just takes a bit more determination.