Re: Getting started learning VB6

  • From: "The Elf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:38:51 -0800

Alex for once I completely agree with you!
having run both sides of that coin in actually I know all to well the stories of both methods of learning and the follies both can run into. 

elf
----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6



If there is one thing growing up in the U.S. has taught me it is to
never underestimate the self-made or self-taught man.  This place's
history  is full of people who did amazing things with technology,
business and sheer self improvement though they had no formal
education as the people of their time saw it.  I'll give you three
examples which should be familiar to everyone around the world:

Thomas Edison:  First person to figure out how to record sound.  His
voice was the very first recorded.  You can hear it on project
gutenberg.  He also invented the electric lightbulb and many many
other things.

Henry Ford:  He figured out how to make assembly lines work and how to
get the automobile priced low enough for regular people to buy.  The
scientists who invented it couldn't do that.  I don't know what Mr.
Mercedes first name was but the other fellow was Karl Benz.  My German
teacher was keen to point this out to us.  Henry Ford  never made it
out of high school.  He was called ignorant by the university elites
of his day, took exception and sued them.  He was able to prove that
what you could do mattered more than what you knew.
Andrew Carneggie:  This man became a very wealthy man though he
started out with nothing in the way of education or finances.  I'll
let you google him to learn his story.
I don't know off the top of my head but, does anyone know if Bill
Gates has a computer science degree?  He dropped out of college and
founded a little company called Microsoft you may have heard of.

Trouble is, this is a very old argument that has been going on since
longer than there have been computers.  On one side you ahve the
university types who put in long hard years and lots of money into
going to college and got their degree.  On the other you have the
self-taught person who learned everything they know through trial and
error and through constant self study.  They often reinvent the wheel
because they are unaware of its existence and take longer at times
than the same person who goes to college to learn a few things.  The
first fellow feels threatened by the second and somehow cheated that
the self-taught man didn't "Pay his dues," and go to a college like he
did.  The second fellow sees the first one as having an unfair
advantage because he might know something he doesn't but he doesn't
have that piece of paper to prove that he is worth anything and that
he knows anything.  he has solved problems through sheer stubborness
that the first fellow blithely jotted down during class and promptly
forgot and then dredges up from memory all rusted and full of holes
that manifest themselves as mistakes the self-taught man would not
make because experience has taught him to avoid them.  On the other
hand, the university fellow can pull from his formal training when new
things come along which the first one hasn't experienced yet because
he has a more theoretical background and he can adapt more quickly
because of it.

Both men have value.  Both are a gamble though the first one is not as
obvious as the second.  I don't think this argument will ever be won
as long as there are those willing to self teach and those with the
wherewithal to attend a formal university.  It's always interesting to
see it manifest itself in different disciplines.  Talk to a senior NCO
some time about fresh minted officers one third their age and you'll
get a very picturesque version of it.  There's a man I know who is an
ex marine first sergeant.  What he says about officers is ...
entertaining.

Regards,
Alex M

On 2/17/11, Jacques Bosch <jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Rick.

To be fair you have to give the guy without the degree 4 years of
experience. <smile>
I think you guys are hearing what I am not saying. I can't even remember how 
we got hear any more. I am not promoting the idea of not aspiring to a
formal education. I am just saying that it is possible the other way also, 
and a lot of passion and hard work.
In the end of the day it comes down to whether somebody can get the job
done, get it done in the right way for any given environment. And yes,
universities can give you a good push in the right direction, however, it
boils right down to the individual in the end.
Something interesting that I experienced in the software company where I was 
part owner;
Over a period of 2 years we had to fill several positions. We must have
interviewed about 30 candidates in total. What really got to us where these people fresh out of university with their degrees that thought they were the 
big answer, and then they totally and utterly crash in the practical test
which was a very simple program. They had to write a console application in 
their language of choice, when given a root folder, to list the nested
folder structure below it. We did not tell them to use recursion. (Wait,
eventually we did start telling them after they made no headway, but it
didn't help any).
Before we realized the power of the practical test to separate those who had a clue from those who did not, we appointed 2 guys with formal degrees from respected universities. The one guy had a good attitude, but was virtually useless in terms of any productivity for the next 18 months because he had to learn how things worked in the real world. The other guys was an absolute disaster. He actually had the degree and several years experience, and was 
extremely smooth and knowledgeable sounding in the interview, and was
appointed as a senior developer, but was the worst thing we ever did in the company. He was clueless, had a bad attitude, but expected all the dues of a 
"senior" position.
There were two other guys, that did not have a degree. The 1 had a 1 year
diploma, and the other had nothing. These were the two that really shined, 
and besides me and my partner, they made the company work. They were the
"junior" developers, but blew the other two out of the water. They ended up 
doing / redoing the "senior" guys work.
Again, this is just experience and not an argument against getting a formal 
education. But if I ever hire again, I will make damn sure that I am not
conned by the implied competence of a degree, but that the person really
does know the first thing about software engineering in the real world.
I'd rather take somebody that has the aptitude, and good attitude, without the degree, and mentor them on the job, than somebody who has a degree, and 
think they know everything, and have to teach them just as much.
All other things being equal though, I would take the person with the
degree. <smile>

Jacques
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 12:51 AM, The Elf <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 


*sigh*

I disagree with your assessment of visual ability and past capabilities
and
choice of GUI or console programming.

also that is not the only place and way to learn, I have some resources
and
a site that it's original use was for blind programmers, Jamal Mazrui has 
a
site devoted to this topic, etc.
my sight is the grab bag site listed under my name below, and Jamal's is: 
www.NonvisualDevelopment.org
I do grant that you should go to VB.net or better C#.net so your starting out in a current language, and either the vb.net 2008 will work good, and 
I hear that 2010 does work with a few more difficulties.

HTH,

elf
Moderator, Blind Access Help
Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
- own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
www.alacorncomputer.com
proprietor, The Grab Bag,
for blind computer users and programmers
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 
26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 8:31 AM

Subject: RE: Getting started learning VB6


There may not be enough money to use and learn dot net.  Fortunately,
mono can be installed and will run on Windows as well as Linux and the
price tag is $0.00.


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell,
Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:28
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Getting started learning VB6

No, not without knowing your visual status.  If you have memory of
having had vision or better yet have a little useable vision your best
bet would be to learn the language with windows forms.  If you have no
memory of vision, then your best bet would be to learn the language
using the console interface, and these are two completely different
paths.


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Otis D Blue
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:22
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Getting started learning VB6

Hi,

Could someone suggest where I can go to learn how to use VB as a
beginner?
I would like to get the understanding of the language and how to create
software with it.

Otis Blue

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--

Jacques Bosch

Software Architecture and Development
Independent Contractor
Cell: +27 824711807 Fax: +27 86 504 4726
E-Mail: jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx


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