[opendtv] Re: Pros/Cons of DSP processor based MPEG software decoder or hardware based MPEG decoder
- From: "Ralph P. Manfredo" <rmanfredo@xxxxxxxx>
- To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:36:56 -0800
Rob:
Thanks for setting me straight on this. When people who we expect to be on
top of standards because they are developing either software or chip based
codecs use terms incorrectly, that causes a lot of confusion. I all my
threads, I was referring to Part 10. As you can see, I also used the term
Level incorrectly. I apologize to anyone I offended..
Ralph
Ralph P. Manfredo
President and CEO
rmanfredo@xxxxxxxx
************************************************************************
BroadBand Networks Corporation
2530 Berryessa Road, No. 237
San Jose, CA 95050
Phone: 408.988.2060
Fax: 408.988.2188
Cell: 559.289.2669
www.bbnc.com
Leaders in MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 video over ATM and IP Networks
************************************************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Rob Koenen (ieee)
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:38 PM
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: Pros/Cons of DSP processor based MPEG software
decoder or hardware based MPEG decoder
Ralph,
Understanding that this terminology is confusing, you got to believe the
people that were there and defined the standard. Tom is one of them.
Level 10 does not exist in any MPEG standard that I know of.
You're mixing up part 10 (the entire standard is part 10 of MPEG-4) with
level 10 (what would be a level whithin a given profile of that standard, if
it existed).
> BTW, I have heard the terms Level and Part used interchangeably
> whether relating to Part/Level 5 or Part/Level 10.
Using the terms Level and Part interchangeably is a Big Mistake.
They denote very different things. Part 5 of MPEG-4 is Reference Software;
it has very little to do with this discussion.
High 10 is a profile that was recently added to MPEG-4 part 10, aka Advanced
Video Coding (AVC) aka ITU-T Rec. H.264. It was added along with two other
profiles as a part of the Fidelity Range Extensions of AVC, High 422 and
High 444. See MPEG's press release,
http://www.chiariglione.org/MPEG/meetings/redmond04/redmond_pr.htm
Rob
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ralph P. Manfredo
> Sent: Wednesday, 09 February, 2005 21:24
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: Pros/Cons of DSP processor based MPEG software
> decoder or hardware based MPEG decoder
>
> Tom:
>
> You're the first person I know of to use the term High 10 Profile.
> In every discussion I have had with chip makers, they consistently
> refer to
> MPEG-4 AVC Level 5 with Level 10 next year. In the book
> MPEG-4 and H.264
> Video Compression written by Iain E. G. Richardson and published by
> Wiley, he makes the following statement on Pg. 87:
>
> VCEG has been responsible for a series of standards related to video
> communication over telecommunication networks and computer networks.
> The H.261 videoconferencing standardwas followed by the more efficient
> H.263 which in turnwas followed by later versions (informally known as
> H.263+ and H.263++) that extended the capabilities of H.263. The
> latest standardisation effort, previously known as 'H.26L', has led to
> the development and publication of Recommendation H.264.
> Since 2001, this effort has been carried out cooperatively between
> VCEG and MPEG and the new standard, entitled 'Advanced Video Coding'
> (AVC), is jointly published as ITU-T
> H.264 and ISO/IEC MPEG-4 Part 10.
>
> BTW, I have heard the terms Level and Part used interchangeably
> whether relating to Part/Level 5 or Part/Level 10.
>
> Ralph
>
> Ralph P. Manfredo
> President and CEO
>
> rmanfredo@xxxxxxxx
>
> **************************************************************
> **********
> BroadBand Networks Corporation
> 2530 Berryessa Road, No. 237
> San Jose, CA 95050
>
> Phone: 408.988.2060
> Fax: 408.988.2188
> Cell: 559.289.2669
>
> www.bbnc.com
>
> Leaders in MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 video over ATM and IP Networks
> **************************************************************
> **********
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tom McMahon
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 12:01 PM
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: Pros/Cons of DSP processor based MPEG software
> decoder or hardware based MPEG decoder
>
> Ralph -
>
> I can assure you that there is no Level 10 in the H.264/AVC Standard.
> We (I am a long-term member of the group that's been working on
> H.264/AVC) stopped
> at Level 5.1.
>
> Perhaps you mean High 10 Profile? If you wish, I can send you a copy
> of the relevant documentation.
>
> Also, I am on the SMPTE D-Cinema Committee and I can assure you that
> they aren't calling for Level 10 of anything. Although the new High
> Profiles of H.264/AVC were designed to meet the requirements posed by
> SMPTE to MPEG's D-Cinema Committee, the current work of SMPTE is
> focusing on specifying the packaging of JPEG2000, not H.264/AVC.
> Inclusion of H.264/AVC as an alternate D-Cinema codec may happen at a
> future date, but even then, it would be Levels 4.3 and 5.1.
>
> - Tom McMahon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ralph P. Manfredo
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 11:18 AM
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: Pros/Cons of DSP processor based MPEG software
> decoder or hardware based MPEG decoder
>
> The H.264 AVC standard I have read covers Level 10. The problem is,
> to my knowledge, no one has released a chip to meet the Level 10 spec.
> Also, I have seen no software decoders that can decoder Level 10. My
> contact on the SMPTE D-Cinema committee has told me they are calling
> for Level 10. They are only settling for Level 5 as a stop-gap
> solution with no plans by Hollywood to make a blanket deployment until
> Level 10 hardware encoders and decoders are available.
>
> Ralph
>
> Ralph P. Manfredo
> President and CEO
>
> rmanfredo@xxxxxxxx
>
> **************************************************************
> **********
> BroadBand Networks Corporation
> 2530 Berryessa Road, No. 237
> San Jose, CA 95050
>
> Phone: 408.988.2060
> Fax: 408.988.2188
> Cell: 559.289.2669
>
> www.bbnc.com
>
> Leaders in MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 video over ATM and IP Networks
> **************************************************************
> **********
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tom McMahon
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:54 AM
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: Pros/Cons of DSP processor based MPEG software
> decoder or hardware based MPEG decoder
>
> I can't speak for MPEG-LA, but H.264/AVC only goes up to Level 5.1
> (which supports 4096 by 2160 for D-Cinema and other very high end
> applications).
>
> You might want to speak with Via Licensing, as they are involved in
> the licensing of H.264/AVC as well (you can't just do business with
> MPEG-LA).
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ralph P. Manfredo
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:19 PM
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: Pros/Cons of DSP processor based MPEG software
> decoder or hardware based MPEG decoder
>
> Donald:
>
> It's the World Airline Entertainment Association. A point of interest
> is that MPEG-LA has committed to attending one of our quarterly
> working group meeting to discuss licensing and they never showed up.
> I believe that is has been 4 or 5 meetings where they made a
> commitment and were scheduled to appear.
>
> An interesting question will be how will licensing be handled when our
> codec system is released with MPEG-1, MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 AVC (Level
> 5 initially
> with Level 10 next year) with transcoding capability. With the
> different licensing requirements by MPEG-LA, it looks like it will be
> a bookkeeping nightmare.
>
> Ralph
>
> Ralph P. Manfredo
> President & CEO
>
> rmanfredo@xxxxxxxx
>
> **************************************************************
> **********
> BroadBand Networks Corporation
> 2530 Berryessa Road, No. 237
> San Jose, CA 95050
>
> Phone: 408.988.2060
> Fax: 408.988.2188
>
> www.bbnc.com
>
> Leaders in MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 video over ATM and IP Networks
> **************************************************************
> **********
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Donald Koeleman
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:35 AM
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: Pros/Cons of DSP processor based MPEG software
> decoder or hardware based MPEG decoder
>
> Ralph, the standardisation to product argument you mention part is in
> my response, albeit not explicitly. Used phrases such as 'anything
> newer' and 'Codecs are still under development, so generations of
> capability sets replace eachother quite rapidly, so no time to design
> and build a hardware implementation'.
>
> Let's not confuse the original poster with IP licensing arguments for
> a particular technology, be it MPEG 4 AVC or VC1 or WM10. As the
> arguments for going with a software codec are the same for all
> compression platforms mentioned. So, if you choose anything over
> mpeg2 or perhaps mpeg4 main profile, so'll be opting for a software
> codec for some time to come.
>
> For many operators there is no other choice than going with newer
> compression technology, for instance hd-tv over satellite (considering
> SES Astra still demands around 5 million euro per annum for a
> transponder on their prime orbital position satellite around 19.2
> degrees east, or the local into local requirements placed upon directv
> and dish).
> Or ADSL or
> DVB-T ops. Basically any-body interested in doing HD.
>
> Ralph, may I ask which standardisation commitee or Industry forum you
> are refering to?
>
> What alternatives are you considering (may I suggest object-based
> compression;-)).
>
> Donald
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ralph P. Manfredo" <rmanfredo@xxxxxxxx>
> To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:22 PM
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: Pros/Cons of DSP processor based MPEG software
> decoder or hardware based MPEG decoder
>
>
> Donald:
>
> Donald:
>
> That is a good and quick response to the question. However, I believe
> you left out a couple of very important reasons as to the why the
> H.264 has not been implemented in chip form yet. One has to do with
> the time it takes to go from standard release to a released chip.
> That is why the software versions are out now I believe. Second and I
> believe is more important is the cost to deliver and view a program
> that is MPEG-4 H.264 compliant due to the total licensing costs.
> These costs are a significant factor I believe and MPEG-LA and their
> outrageous licensing scheme may kill MPEG-4. I don't believe
> consumers in general will accept the higher costs to watch a MPEG-4
> program vs. an MPEG-2 program. This of course is my opinion, but I am
> part of a next generation entertainment system standards committee,
> and we are seriously considering scrapping MPEG-4 due to the high
> licensing costs to view a program. These costs presently outweigh the
> advantage saved by storage requirements as disc drive costs are coming
> down and capacity is going up and this is a one time cost.
>
> Ralph
>
> Ralph P. Manfredo
> President & CEO
>
> rmanfredo@xxxxxxxx
>
> **************************************************************
> **********
> BroadBand Networks Corporation
> 2530 Berryessa Road, No. 237
> San Jose, CA 95050
>
> Phone: 408.988.2060
> Fax: 408.988.2188
>
> www.bbnc.com
>
> Leaders in MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 video over ATM and IP Networks
> **************************************************************
> **********
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
>
> - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at
> FreeLists.org
>
> - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word
> unsubscribe in the subject line.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
>
> - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at
> FreeLists.org
>
> - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word
> unsubscribe in the subject line.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
>
> - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at
> FreeLists.org
>
> - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word
> unsubscribe in the subject line.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
>
> - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at
> FreeLists.org
>
> - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word
> unsubscribe in the subject line.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
>
> - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at
> FreeLists.org
>
> - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word
> unsubscribe in the subject line.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
>
> - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at
> FreeLists.org
>
> - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word
> unsubscribe in the subject line.
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
- Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at
FreeLists.org
- By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word
unsubscribe in the subject line.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways:
- Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at
FreeLists.org
- By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word
unsubscribe in the subject line.
Other related posts: