[opendtv] Re: Math of oversampling - a simple comparison
- From: "John Willkie" <JohnWillkie@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:40:02 -0700
I do know that I'm not alone in my perceptions about your desire for social
control of markets; at least four other list members have mentioned it to me
in the last two weeks.
What picture?
John Willkie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Barry" <trbarry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:27 PM
Subject: [opendtv] Re: Math of oversampling - a simple comparison
> John Willkie wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry, I only parse text, and english language text at that.
>
> Sorry John, but your post gives little indication of that. Most
> of it seems totally off the wall, containing implications I don't
> understand understand economics and my reasoning is somehow
> Socialist followed by a conclusion that since you "know" ATSC is
> adequate thus my "attempted orthagonal arguments" about the
> relative picture quality and value are somehow invalid. There was
> generally no substance there at all.
>
> But what did you think of the picture. ;-)
>
> - Tom
>
>
> But then,
> > you don't deal with commercial situations well, and my points were about
> > commercial success, not "good enough for Marx" type of things.
> >
> > I know that 8-VSB is adequate, so attempted orthogonal arguments about
> > low-bit rate things as an attempt to "improve" things are non-starters
for
> > me.
> >
> > You are free, of course, to pursue your windmills.
> >
> > John Willkie
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tom Barry" <trbarry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:34 AM
> > Subject: [opendtv] Re: Math of oversampling - a simple comparison
> >
> >
> >
> >>John Willkie wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>If you want to fail, sure only beat or match the competition. Then,
> >
> > their
> >
> >>>first position tends to wear you down. Very quickly.
> >>>
> >>>You need a "unique selling proposition." Being "almost as good as" or
> >>>"slightly better" isn't a USP. Unless you are substantially cheaper,
> >
> > which
> >
> >>>tends to affect profit margins.
> >>>
> >>>John Willkie
> >>>
> >>
> >>John -
> >>
> >>I cannot argue with any of that ceteris paribus.
> >>
> >>But would you personally rather have reliable low bit rate mobile
> >>reception of video like the right side of my sample picture or
> >>"standard ATSC" reception like the left side. ;-)
> >>
> >>- Tom
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: "Tom Barry" <trbarry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:22 AM
> >>>Subject: [opendtv] Re: Math of oversampling - a simple comparison
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Bob Miller wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>If a broadcaster uses a 1080p camera and broadcast as 480P and on the
> >>>>>reception end it is upconverted to 720P or stays 480P I understand
that
> >>>>>because of oversampling both the 720P or 480P image would be better
> >
> > than
> >
> >>>>>otherwise would be expected. What I would like to do is quantify this
> >>>>>value. How would you compare a straight thru 720P broadcast to one
such
> >>>>>as that above. Would the 1080P>480P>720P route be 75% of the quality
of
> >>>>>the 720P>720P>720P route? Would 1080P>480P>480P be 110% of
> >>>
> >>>480P>480P>480P?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Bob -
> >>>>
> >>>>In practice I guess it is only necessary to beat or maybe match
> >>>>the competition. And currently most HDTV does not really contain
> >>>>that much detail. I have included a link to a captured image from
> >>>>the Pilot of the Medium TV series. The LEFT half of that image
> >>>>was left untouched.
> >>>>
> >>>>But on the RIGHT half of the image I filtered out all frequencies
> >>>>that would correspond to a spatial resolution higher than a 1/4
> >>>>rez of 960x544, using my DctFilter plugin for Avisynth
> >>>>(www.trbarry.com/Readme_DctFilter.txt). That filter does a
> >>>>discrete cosine transform and then (in this case) zeros out all
> >>>>coefficients except for the 4x4 square in the top left of the 8x8
> >>>>matrix. Then an inverse transform back to pixels.
> >>>>
> >>>>Thus the resulting image could theoretically be encoded at only
> >>>>960x544 without any more loss of detail. Of course in practice
> >>>>that would introduce additional scaling and compression artifacts.
> >>>> I did not do that.
> >>>>
> >>>>So, without further ado, see for yourself at:
> >>>>
> >>>> www.trbarry.com/Medium_1080p_compare_qtr_rez.jpg
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>It is not hard to compete with the detail of most HD these days.
> >>>>Most of the extra pixels are sadly just being wasted anyway.
> >>>>
> >>>>- Tom
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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