[noCensorship] Re: Anon proxy [was: Re: Re: Shake It Up!]
- From: wayne <wayne@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: nocensorship@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: 8 Mar 2003 21:23:36 -0000
> From: Hat <hat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: nocensorship@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [noCensorship] Re: Anon proxy [was: Re: Re: Shake It Up!]
[...]
> w> Don't read this bit if you're easily confused. I don't want
> w> to be accused of confusing people again :-)
>
> I guess you already did by talking about simpler things...
It *is* a problem.
> Some other
> gurus will appreciate it :)
>
> w> Here's a quick comparison with localProxy in HTTP anon mode:
>
> Hey, sorry, I didn't mean to compare it with LP. But if you insist!
I know you didn't. I thought it was worth doing though, in the spirit
of getting some conversation going here.
> w> 1) LP is much faster, Jap is very slow
>
> I'm not sure which speed you are talking about here. However, if you
> are talking about running the GUI, IMHO both are slow.
> If you mean the service, well, both depends on the proxy you are
> using. However, LP has got an advantage here by testing the proxies
> and demoting the slow proxies as I remember it and using multi proxies
> at the same time. In JAP, they are running 2-4 proxy servers always
> (not as a multi proxy like LP) to choose from, and the speed depends
> on the number of user and traffic. Normally the main server is used by
> average of 1300 users, where as the second or third server might not
> be loaded by more than 80-100 users. Normally the users are lazy to
> switch to another server, since JAP will automatically run the default
> server.
LP uses direct access proxies if they are there.
No encryption, no mix chain.
I certainly see the difference - in the hour or so (spread over an
evening) that I spent with JAP and LP, I saw probably 5 times the
speed from LP/anon.
But of course that's no help if you want the encryption :-)
I use ssh with LP to provide socks proxy, web proxy and encryption
most of the time, and I see the speed drop down to JAP speeds then.
I'm not suggesting it's all because of the encryption though.
The extra hops (in both my ssh/lp and jap cases) has a lot more to
do with it.
> OTOH, in LP, you can never predict when an anon proxy is going to be
> slow if it's under heavy traffic. It all depends on the proxy in use
> here, not only the tools in use (LP or JAP).
>
>
>
> w> 2) Jap is encrypted, LP is not
>
> That's correct!
>
> w> 3) Jap relies on the mix anonymity (*very* good, I think), LP relies
> w> on anon proxies tested by me (or by you using something like statProxy).
>
> Which we can never depend on!
Yep. That's why I was reluctant to even code the anon stuff into lp.
If you were serious about anonymity with web browsing, you would
never use 'anon' web proxies at all.
> Since the proxy in use by LP can never
> be trusted to remain anon. It can turn non-anon any moment. And I
> don't think that it would be practical to keep on testing an anon
> proxy for that reason. It's time consuming and might alert the ISP or
> the proxy owner. Mix was made for the anonymity purpose, however the
> free anon open proxies around, just happened to be setup like that.
> Maybe they are a trap for terrorists :)
Lol.
Terrorists do seem to be rather non-technical.
The trap would probably work, if you could make sure they used your
proxies.
> w> 4) LP is huge because it does other things too, Jap is specialized
> w> for this job and uses few resources.
>
> True. However, the GUI is now so crowded with options, I as an old
> power user of LP, recently find myself need to read the FAQ's to check
> what I'm doing or how I would do it!
I know. I experiment with ideas like that.
Don't worry, the 'freeze' sliders will all be disappearing soon.
Noone uses them anyway - including me.
That makes the window much less crowded. Ahhh ... room for more
experiments! :-)
> w> 5) Jap seems to be using a single proxy at the end of the chain, LP
> w> tries to be clever using multiple proxies at the end and that causes
> w> problems occasionally with subscription sites that like to see you
> w> coming from only one proxy at a time :-)
>
> That's one of the main reasons I needed JAP for. Since I was forced to
> do some maintenance with these password accessed mailing lists and
> all..
>
> w> 6) Jap looks to be reliable, LP often needs the user to refresh a
> w> page to get all the components. The new retry code (CVS only for
> w> now)helps a lot, but has different problems itself.
>
> I haven't test LP lately. I'll let you know if I do!
I told ya the cvs version was broken.
Last night, I got rid of one of the most serious problems and now
it's about like it was before the new code. Now I can see the
reasons why it's limping along at least, and they are all fixable, so
I'm sure the new code will be much better when I finish.
Maybe another weekend :-)
> w> 7) Jap relies on access to the first mix port. This could be easily
> w> blocked by any ISP. LP does not have this problem provided there
> w> are proxies (of several different types) to get to.
>
> This could only be a case to look after in countries under censorship
> like UAE and KSA, not in other countries!
And corporate sites, and schools, and libraries, and ISPs, and ...
LP can't be so easily blocked. It's surprised me a few times now,
when I thought there was no way through.
> One more disadvantage of JAP. All the proxy servers are in Dresden -
> Germany!
No problem. As long as there are enough of them.
> >> On the other hand, I belive that using such programs like JAP or even
> >> LP, encourage the developers to go on improvement, thus better
> >> services! Users contribution can be as simple as using the software,
> >> and reporting bugs or providing some bandwidth if u have it and the
> >> community needs it!
>
> w> Jap's not the p2p kind of thing though, where each user adds bandwidth.
> w> You would need to run a mix - not something the average user could do.
>
> Yes, they don't have to.
Someone has to.
I like the p2p idea better, where everyone contributes to the
bandwidth. 'Course, I suppose I should then logically argue that
The cypherpunks remailers would be better as a p2p thingy too.
That hasn't proved to be a winner yet, and the idea is a decade
old or more.
> >> Or go further step and setup your nym account and have a
> >> permanent anon email account like the one wayne or I'm using!
>
> w> Heh, of all the thousands of users we've talked to on these lists, I
> only
> w> know of a few who have managed this. :-)
> w> I think I could still count them on one hand.
>
> I know few too. I once posted a step by step, how to setup a nym
> account. If someone is interested, I can pull the post from the
> archive. Anyone?
>
> Regards,
> Hat
--
wayne@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://proxytools.sourceforge.net/
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