[macvoiceover] Re: Programming with VO
- From: Bryan Smart <bryansmart@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 13:49:18 -0500
Direct link:
http://groups.google.com/group/mv-dev
or
Send a message to
mv-dev+subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
For a while, I wasn't receiving notifications from Google about pending
membership requests, so, if you tried before, please try again.
Bryan
-----Original Message-----
From: macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tim Burgess
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 3:41 AM
To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: Programming with VO
Me too.
Best wishes.
Tim Burgess
Raised Bar Ltd
Phone: +44 (0)1827 719822
Don't forget to vote for improved access to music and music technology at
http://www.raisedbar.net/petition.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gabe Vega
Sent: 01 December 2010 02:03
To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: Programming with VO
direct link to mv-dev please. I'd be glad to join.
On 11/30/10, Bryan Smart <bryansmart@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Long delay in getting back to this thread, but...
>
> Sorry that I misunderstood you. Thought you said that it wasn't
> possible
at
> all, not that it wasn't possible with Interface Builder.
>
> The problem with Interface Builder isn't so much that it is
> inaccessible
to
> VoiceOver, as that it is an unsuitable type of program for a blind
> person
to
> use for this sort of work. Back when I started exploring programming
options
> for the Mac, I found lots of complaints about how IB didn't work. I
> discovered that, with some workarounds, it actually did work, a bit.
> Most all of the IB user interface is accessible. However, VoiceOver,
> as good of
a
> screen reader as it is, doesn't really provide much of a way for us to
> get
a
> grasp on layout. VoiceOver on iOS does a good job. You can feel around
> the screen, and know exactly where controls are located. VO on OS X,
> with a track pad, does sort of the same thing, but doesn't seem as
> accurate when
it
> comes to layout. If you interact with a toolbar, for example, you'll
clearly
> see this demonstrated. Moving horizontally on the track pad navigates
> between buttons, but the track pad is completely oblivious to any sort
> of vertical spacing. Now, I know that a tool bar is just one line, so
> it shouldn't really matter. In practical day-to-day terms, the
> current way
is
> probably the better way. Excluding this example, this sort of zoning
happens
> in other places. Desktop VO might split the track pad in left and
> right halves to let you know there is a side bar area, but the
> proportions that
it
> chooses don't seem to be related to the actual size on the screen. So,
> on iOS, the tactile position is very literal, but, on the desktop, the
spacing
> is meant more to convey meaning to you, rather than to accurately
represent
> the screen. Given this, it is very difficult to imagine using a
> program
like
> Interface Builder, regardless of its accessibility level. Suppose
> you're
in
> a window, containing a button and some static text. Since VO isn't
> showing you literal positions, how can you drag the button to the right
> location?
> The answer is that you can't.
>
> When it comes to formatting, IB includes some positional guides that
> help line up controls. These are like grids that are overlaid on the
> window. If one of these grids is enabled for a part of the window,
> then you're shown little boxes, and you drag a button in to one of the
> boxes, then IB snaps that button to an appropriate exact position. I
> have no idea how that sort of info could be conveyed to a VoiceOver
> user. Maybe each zone of the grid/guide could be a blank container
> that they'd interact with? Except,
if
> you did, you'd need to perform the release step of drag and drop
> there,
and
> with an empty container, I'm not sure if you could use VO-Command-F5
> to
move
> the mouse to the position prior to releasing the item being drug.
>
> After realizing all of this, I was a lot less upset with the lack of
> accessibility, or, more accurately, the lack of my ability to
> accomplish anything meaningful with IB. It wasn't a matter of Apple
> needing to add labels for controls, or anything so straight forward.
> The program was fundamentally designed to be a visual tool, and trying
> to make it work without vision is a challenge that would require
> changes in not only it,
but
> in the screen reader, too. Quite a huge project, to be sure. That's a
> bit like asking Microsoft to make Visio accessible.
>
> Incidentally, in IB, you can set hierarchical relations between
> controls
by
> using cut/copy/paste in the outline view. You can open the inspector
> for
any
> graphical control, and set its position by manually entering coordinates.
> You can establish data bindings by directly editing in xCode, and IB
> will pick up on them. Still, while you "can" work this way, it
> requires a
massive
> amount of effort. The effort, in my mind, is too much. For most
> people,
the
> user interface is the easiest part of the app to slap together. For
> us,
this
> really is like trying to use a screw driver to hammer in a nail, since
> the whole process is counterintuitive to the way that we think about
> user interfaces.
>
> I don't know how much you understand about how IB works behind the
> scenes, but any work that a person performs for interface design in IB
> is saved as NIB/XIB markup files. When your app starts, Cocoa loads
> this file from the bundle, and, based on the parameters in the markup
> file, creates the
needed
> objects that make up your user interface. This is exactly what happens
with
> Renaissance, except the parameters just originate in a differently
formatted
> markup file. Apple assumes that most people will be using Interface
Builder,
> so their markup is optimized for small size and speed of loading,
> rather than to be human readable and editable. The results are the same,
> though.
> Renaissance also includes the extra step of automatic formatting, if
> you want it.
>
> I hate teasing people with pre-announcements, but, when threads like
> this come up, it is hard not to do so. The Renaissance markup is quite
> easy to read and edit by hand. Still, there is no reason that it must
> be read or edited by hand. Just like how Interface Builder is really
> an editor for NIB/XIB files, it is certainly possible to make an
> editor for the GSMARKUP files used by Renaissance. That sort of
> program is one of my current projects. I'm currently calling it
> Interface Describer. *smile* Once finished, it can be registered as
> the creator/owner for GSMARKUP files,
and,
> when that happens, you'll be able to simply open the GSMARKUP files in
your
> xCode projects in the way that sighted people open the NIB/XIB files.
> It will be pretty much a full replacement for Interface Builder at
> that point for people that want to use dynamically generated
> interfaces. Since the objects that Renaissance creates at run-time
> support the interfaces of the Cocoa objects, someone using Interface
> Describer to create their interface need know nothing about
> Renaissance to use it. They edit their interface with Interface
> Describer, and code like they're using regular Cocoa
objects.
> The transparent operation is a cool concept for me to contemplate.
>
> The Java and Mono stuff might be useful, in ways, but, as far as I
> know, Renaissance is the only way to do this sort of thing if you want
> to write native Object C apps.
>
> I'm glad to hear that you use it and like it. I was expecting way more
> excitement and participation with it than has happened. That is really
> disappointing. Since this is a free project, it is the enthusiasm of
> the people using it, and seeing the software that they build with it,
> that
would
> give me the energy to keep working on it. I guess there aren't too
> many blind people that are interested in programming for OS X. An iOS
> version might be better received. With the desktop version, I was able
> to build on the massive work that was already undertaken for the
> GNUstep version. On iOS, the work would involve almost an entire
> rewrite. I have full-time
work
> and other hobbies, though, so don't know if I have that kind of time.
Maybe
> if I could split the work with a group of people, we could make it
> happen, but, so far, programming interest among blind people for any
> Apple stuff
has
> been low, as best as I can tell.
>
> If you're not on MV-Dev, think about coming over. I really wish that
> we could get more traffic going on that list with blind coders.
>
> Bryan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel
> Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 1:51 AM
> To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: Programming with VO
>
>
> On Nov 24, 2010, at 7:32 PM, Bryan Smart wrote:
>
>> Travis, this isn't correct. My RenaissanceX library will
>> automatically generate user interfaces at run-time that conform to
>> Apple's Human Interface Guidelines. If you wish, it will also
>> properly format
>> (arrange/size/space) controls, based on their logical relationships.
>> You can override that automatic formatting behavior for a single
>> control, a group of controls, or as much of the UI as you'd like.
>
> Right, all of which is done without interface builder.
> The main point of my email was that ibuilder is *not* accessible other
than
> modifying existing interfaces already built in interface builder.
> I did mention there were other tools, though I didn't specifically
> mention renaissance, though I do have it, and mono as well, along with
> sdl, and sfml, all of which can be used to varying degrees to
> accomplish interface building (some definitely better than others),
> but the mere fact that the tools provided by apple are *not* usable by
> voiceover users is a real kick in the pants, since they have put so much work
> into voiceover itself.
It's
> really a shame if you ask me, but since nobody did, I guess it doesn't
make
> a whole lot of difference.
>
>>
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>>
>
--
Gabe Vega A+, Net+, ATACP
The Tech of all Techs
http://thebt.net
(623) 565-9357
>
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>
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