Webster: "In Welsh, w, which is sounded as in English is used without another vowel, as in fwl, a fool; dwn, dun; dwb, mortar; gwn, a gun, and a gown." I didn't understand this at first -- because of the missing comma after English -- and am still a bit unhappy about it; so let me clarify it. In Welsh, w is both a w as in wonder, as in Bugeilio'r Gwenith Gwyn (better sung by a Welsh lyric tenor) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPza0FNJRAg and a w as in Cwm Rhondda (can't find a good version in Welsh) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5NOVcefEYU Judy Evans, Cardiff On Sat, 16/7/11, Mike Geary <jejunejesuit.geary2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: Mike Geary <jejunejesuit.geary2@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: conference on hypothesis testing To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Saturday, 16 July, 2011, 0:31 I too was taught sometimes 'y' and 'w'. Never understood the 'w'. Just now I found this on google: In Grammar of the English Tongue, which is prefixed to his Dictionary of the English Language, Samuel Johnson (1709-1784) wrote: "Of w, which in diphthongs is often an undoubted vowel, some grammarians have doubted whether it ever be a consonant; and not rather as it is called a double u, or ou, as water may be resolved into ouater; but letters of the same sound are always reckoned consonants in other alphabets: and it may be observed, that w follows a vowel without any hiatus or difficulty of utterance, as frosty winter. Yet I am of opinion that both w and y are always vowels, because they cannot after a vowel be used with the sound which is supposed to make them consonants." Note: The last sentence is omitted in the 1785 6th edition and later editions of the Dictionary. In his 1828 edition of his American Dictionary of the English Language, Noah Webster (1758-1843) wrote: "W is properly a vowel, a simple sound, formed by opening the mouth with a close circular configuration of the lips. it is precisely the ou of the French, and the u of the Spaniards, Italians and Germans. With the h vowels it forms diphthongs, which are of easy pronunciation; as in well, want, will, dwell; pronouced ooell, ooant, ooill, dooell. In English, it is always followed by another vowel, except when followed by h, as is when; but this case is an exception only in writing, and not in pronunciation, for h precedes w in utterance; when being pronounced hooen. In Welsh, w, which is sounded as in English is used without another vowel, as in fwl, a fool; dwn, dun; dwb, mortar; gwn, a gun, and a gown. Ih his 1823 book, The First Lines of Grammar, Goold Brown (1791-1857) wrote: "W or Y is called a consonant when it precedes a vowel heard in the same syllable, as in wine, twine, whine, ye, yet, youth; in all other cases, these letters are vowels, as in newly, dewy, eyebrow." God bless Google. Mike Geary Google-boy of Memphis On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 2:29 PM, John Wager <jwager@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Donal McEvoy wrote: Try all you like but they seem hellbent on examining 'What is it like to be the only gay in the village and use 'w' as a vowel?', When I was in second grade, I distinctly remember being taught the vowels by making a hand-outline on my newsprint paper and writing A-E-I-O-U on all the finger tips, and then writing W and Y on the heel of the hand. But years later, I realized that only "Y" was REALLY a vowel, and couldn't see why in the world I had remembered both W and Y. Was it my first confirmed faulty memory example? Was I mis-taught in Pennsylvania? Was there some secret that only my second grade teacher knew that nobody else knew? My "hypothesis" is that there is a problem somewhere; this is fairly easy to test, at least. But now you have given me a new hypothesis to test: Perhaps my second grade teacher was Welsh!!! Or at least realized English included the possibility of using "W" as a vowel, in some localities? Is "W" really a vowel in Welsh? Or is this also just some kind of weird dream from my past? ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html