[lit-ideas] Re: Reason and Politics
- From: wokshevs@xxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, Steve Chilson <stevechilson@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 12:25:21 -0330
Steve's post below does clarify a great deal. A first thought is that the issue
of imposing values and principles on people is different from the matter of
educating people into a life of rational autonomy, and different too, though
less so, from the matter of justifying the universal validity of a moral
framework or form of governance. I'm only interested in the latter issue here.
Thanks, Steve, for the clarity.
Walter C. Okshevsky
MUN
Quoting Steve Chilson <stevechilson@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
> Apologies for the lack of clarity Walter, having left too much to infer.
>
> By the "belief in democracy", I was referring to democratic theorists
> and the ideals which they appear to be attempting to export over this
> last decade in particular; that democracy is the miracle cure for any
> society's ills regardless of that society's culture and history. By
> truth and righteousness creating fire in the souls, I'm (obviously only
> attempting and without particular success) to convey western politicians
> and similar democratic theorists waving a magic wand of "democracy" over
> a country the same way that strikes me as not dissimilar from American
> politicians making statements along the lines that by believing in
> Jesus, for example, they will be morally more substantive people. My
> own murky claim, clearly well-hidden between the lines (too much so
> perhaps,) was that calls for more belief in democracy/more exportation
> of their democratic theories are similar to calls for the exportation of
> more belief in religion from one misguided soul to another in that of
> late, they would to some, appear to be substantiated more by killing or
> dying for rather than by the deeds of being democractic or the by acting
> with moral substance themselves. The last line suggests in an equally
> well-cloaked manner that feeding people should be the concern of society
> not the exportation of democratic or religious ideals. Again, apologies
> for the abstraction of the lines themselves not, of course, of the
> author of those lines :)
>
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 17:16:49 -0230, wokshevs@xxxxxx said:
> > Steve's post below opens by asking a potentially interesting but poorly
> > formulated question. He then loses me completely in the subsequent
> > sentences.
> > Staying with that opening question for the moment, I think it's important
> > to
> > specify somewhat the idea or criterion of "more important" before
> > venturing
> > answers. Steve seems to assume the notion is somehow self-evident. Or
> > that it
> > is unpacked by the subsequent sentences. I do not think it is. Others may
> > disagree of course. Steve, could you help out here? Perhaps it would also
> > help
> > if you could unpack what you take to be involved in "the belief in
> > democracy."
> > By "the" is it that you believe there is only one possible belief, or one
> > legitimate belief, concerning democracy? As if anyone supporting
> > democracy as a
> > form of governance would necessarily have that belief?
> >
> > And I completely agree with your maxim not to talk bullshit or political
> > correctness simply for the sake of political correctness.
> >
> > Walter C. Okshevsky
> > Memorial University
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting Steve Chilson <stevechilson@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >
> > > what is more important - the belief in religion or the belief in
> > > democracy?
> > >
> > > Let's not talk bullshit or political correct.
> > >
> > > Truth and righteousness are words that create fire in souls but they
> > > have no real meaning.
> > >
> > > the belief in nothing; that is the belief in religion and the belief in
> > > democracy.
> > >
> > > Will I kill a man for my freedom? Will I kill a man for my god? Will I
> > > kill a man for bread?
> > >
> > > Those are the questions.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:49:56 -0230, wokshevs@xxxxxx said:
> > > > I don't think the issue here is a matter of the tenets of a religion.
> > > > Democracy
> > > > as a political system, and rationality as a system of universal
> > > > imperatives,
> > > > are obligated to disregard the truth or rightness of any religious
> view.
> > > > The
> > > > question for your account is really how and whether Enlightenment
> values
> > > > of
> > > > benefit maximization (or any other E. value, for that matter) can
> > > > legitimately
> > > > trump the right to religious expression in a pluralist democracy where
> > > > freedom
> > > > of religion is a charter or constitutional right. "Successful
> pluralism"
> > > > surely
> > > > involves a fair system of cooperation between all cultural and
> religious
> > > > groups
> > > > in which the rights of all are protected. I'm not clear on how the
> > > > preservation
> > > > of any one right can be "a subsidiary goal" to the preservation of
> other
> > > > rights.
> > > >
> > > > Walter Okshevsky
> > > > Memorial U.
> > > >
> > > > Quoting Eric Yost <eyost1132@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> > > >
> > > > > >>Suppose someone were to aver: 'There is no true freedom
> > > > > of religion in a democracy if there is no freedom to burn
> > > > > heretics and apostates as required by our religion.' What
> > > > > would the proper response be to such a claim?"
> > > > >
> > > > > And why were Satanists overlooked in Bush's so-called
> > > > > faith-based initiatives? Surely they could have run a soup
> > > > > kitchen between animal sacrifices.
> > > > >
> > > > > Suppose the answer is that in a liberal democracy,
> > > > > Enlightenment values of maximum happiness overrule the
> > > > > tenets of any particular religion? The highest goal being
> > > > > successful pluralism -- goals subsidiary to that being
> > > > > freedom of religion, speech, usw.
> > > > >
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> > > --
> > > Steve Chilson
> > > stevechilson@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > > --
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> --
> Steve Chilson
> stevechilson@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
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