[lit-ideas] Re: Opinion needed
- From: Andy <mimi.erva@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:28:24 -0700 (PDT)
Animals know death, of course they do, but I can't see how you can say they
worry about it constantly unless you're being funny. They are wary when they
need to be and stay out of harm's way as much as they can, but if they worried
about death, they wouldn't run in front of cars, would they? And yes, they
mourn, they have separation anxiety. They have emotional lives. They just
don't have greed and obsessions that substitute for living. They usually don't
fight to the death, they don't sit around designing weapons to kill each
other. With the exception of designing weapons, primates fight to the death,
but we're primates, with 99% same genes. The 1% difference between us are our
weapon designing genes.
As far as hating, dogs have a sixth sense whereby they sense vibrations, for
lack of a better word and it's not inconceivable that other animals do as
well. We got the big useless brain, they got the extra sense(s). The ram
might have been responding to something in your brother that made it uneasy.
Still, that ram didn't sit around plotting how to exterminate the object of its
unease. Needless to say I think we can guess which one of the two, your
brother or the ram, wound up in the styrofoam package in the meat aisle.
Most importantly, nonhuman life ensures its survival by protecting its
environment. Humans are the only species that deliberately destroys
its environment. In fact, they not only destroy it, they don't even know they
need it. Humans kind of do live in a warped sense of present in that they
can't remember beyond five minutes ago or see longer than five minutes into the
future, but the present humans live in doesn't stop them from obsessions and
greed and meanness and war and on and on, in a world where we're all good and
they're all bad. Nonhuman life just doesn't carry that kind of baggage. Yes,
nonhuman life doesn't write poetry but it designs living poetry in its
spectacular colors and fragrances and flavors and doesn't pollute a molecule of
air or water in the process.
--- On Mon, 10/13/08, Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Opinion needed
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 5:54 PM
IC:
>>Also, for Mike, I agree with Whitman. Animals face all sorts of things, but
>>mercifully they don't have abstract reasoning so they can't worry about it
>>before it happens.<<
Do you think? Or rather, do they think? Unless they're machines they do. How
sophisticated are their thoughts? I don't know. I would guess that a gazelle
on the veldt would have more sophisticated reasoning than I about the
significance of how the grass is moving and the what that scent signals and
given the local parameters, which way would be best to run.. And if she had
words, no doubt she would write a poem about it. Doggerel maybe, but dogs have
a right to live too.
>>They don't worry about death, about someone stealing from them and on and
>>on.<<
You must live in a different neighborhood.
>>One day, like everyone and everything, they just die and it's all over.<<
I seriously doubt that it's so cut and dry. Animals are not machines. They
have emotional lives -- perhaps even more immediate than ours. Many species
of mammals are apparently aware of the death of members of a herd or flock or
of their own young and many exhibit periods of mourning. Dogs will mourn a
master's passing. Many species show evidence of mourning the death of mates,
of offspring, of alpha members. I witnessed the most amazing thing in this
regard back in 2000. I had gone to work on a cooler in Everett, WA. While I
was taking my tools out of the van, I noticed that crows were descending in the
parking lot about a dozen feet or so away from me and forming a circle around a
dead crow -- a circle roughly ten feet in diameter. They were all silent until
the last one settled in the circle then all at once they all started cawing
very loudly, it was more like screaming, a crow's version of ululation? It
lasted for
about a minute or two. Then they stopped in unison and flew away together. I
was dumbfounded. Don't tell me animals don't know about death. Elephants and
some other species often seem to have premonitions of their own deaths and will
walk away from a herd to die. And when elephants come upon a dead elephant,
they exhibit ritual behaviors of either burial or protection of the corpse.
Mother monkeys will carry their dead infants and try to nurse them for a period
of time or until the body starts to putrefy. They know death. And they worry
about it constantly.
>>Animals also don't hate.<<
There are some dogs I've known that I'd like to introduce you to. Of course
animals CAN hate. When we lived on a farm, there was a ram who hated my
brother. He didn't bother anyone else, just my brother. He would charge after
him and butt him for no discernable reason. There was just something about my
brother that that ram couldn't stand.
He must have reminded him of someone.
>>Animals basically live in the moment, in the eternal present.<<
Oh? Have they spoken to you about this? Many animals store food for the
winter, many migrate to other climes as the seasons progress. Many build
elaborate dens with emergency exits, etc. Some even use primitive tools to
hunt and gather food. Is all this just living in the moment? You might claim
that they do this in blind obedience to seasonal cues.. That it's all just
instinct. But so too might all our reasoning be. If fact, I'd vote for the
latter.
>> The eternal present is the goal of meditation in fact, to stay out of the
>>past (the unconscious) or the future (dread and foreboding, such as needing
>>to enter a nursing home).<<
If you say so. I'm not much on meditation. Too busy looking over my shoulder.
>> Even when they they put their brains to use, humans develop weapons and
>> destroy their drinking water and on and on. How is that in any way
>> joyful?<<
Not sure how this follows on any thing.
I stand by my observation that animals, except perhaps domesticated pets and
those in zoos, live lives gripped in constant fear of being devoured. Any
moment might be their last and they know it. We humans live in a less
impending environment. Vigilance is less essential to our survival. Our
predators are primarily microbes and little DNA mistakes or else huge
meteorological and tectonic plate events. They usually move very slowly and
with indiscernible stealth until it's too late. Not many of us fall victim to
the jaws of tigers anymore. Whitman's idealization of animal life as carefree
and a more authentic way of being is rubbish. I wrote the poem because I was
re-reading Whitman and reading that poem, I had to laugh. I used to think it
was wonderful. But I was in an anti-Romantic mood. Not willing to suffer
foolish claptrap. I understand and in many ways sympathize with Whitman's call
to live life free from the Protestant
ethic, but his metaphor is all wrong. Animals have it worse than we do,
that's all I was saying. Didn't mean to stir you up.
Mike Geary
Memphis
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy
To: lit-ideas
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 10:41 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Opinion needed
It might be why oil prices are going down. If we still had any influence in
the world, it would be tempting to say that we're strong arming the Saudis to
produce until the election, because if gasoline was right now at or near $5.00
a gallon, McCain wouldn't stand a chance. Or it could be just bizarre market
behavior.
And you don't have to worry about the economy getting better. It might get
better on the surface but underneath there is still no foundation for it except
debt and empty paper. Like they say, something that can't go on forever
won't. Still, I'm willing to listen to someone making a case for building an
economy on debt and empty paper. I continue to believe that the untimely
interest rate cuts and the 'irrational exuberance' was engineered, but the
way the economy just exploded to give Obama an advantage over McCain speaks to
this financial thing having gotten away from the PTB. Richard Heinberg thinks
the global casino as he calls it (i.e., wealth being produced from placing bets
on stocks, on commodities, on for ex, hedge funds, in the absence of any real
production) will be replaced some time in the early 21st century by a village
flea market, where money will become valueless and people will be trading in
real goods . It all sounds
so catastrophic, certainly, but not without basis.
Also, for Mike, I agree with Whitman. Animals face all sorts of things, but
mercifully they don't have abstract reasoning so they can't worry about it
before it happens. They don't worry about death, about someone stealing from
them and on and on. One day, like everyone and everything, they just die and
it's all over. Humans die too like everyone and everything, but they spend
decades knowing they will get old and die. Animals also don't hate.
Animals basically live in the moment, in the eternal present. The eternal
present is the goal of meditation in fact, to stay out of the past (the
unconscious) or the future (dread and foreboding, such as needing to enter a
nursing home). Even when they they put their brains to use, humans develop
weapons and destroy their drinking water and on and on. How is that in any way
joyful?
What is it about Sarah Palin that is about as unpresidential looking as it's
possible to be? Hillary looked presidential. Angela Merkel looks the part.
But Sarah looks like somebody's sister-in-law. Our national sister-in-law is
our next president. Geez. At least maybe she can wear a moose shirt and polar
bear hat. Why isn't McCain at least dressing her for the part?
--- On Sun, 10/12/08, Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Opinion needed
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sunday, October 12, 2008, 7:05 PM
Just pray that the economy doesn't improve before Nov. 4. : )
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