[jaws-uk] Re: Thoughts on captchas
- From: "Jamie Cuthbertson" <jamie.cuthbertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 13:44:35 -0000
Hi Kevin,
Unfortunately, the mere act of making an audio captcha easy to hear defeats
the purpose because it then becomes really easy for a spammer to use speech
recognition to decipher it.
I certainly think that an approach which requires some kind of human
intelligence, like the simple calculation method, is the way to go. Sadly,
to design something that meets all the requirements of accessibility and
security is more tricky than it would appear at first glance because there
are so many little swines out there who are determined to do wicked things
on the internet.
Maybe we should just execute all folk found guilty of spamming!! (Smile)
Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Kevin Morris
Sent: 20 March 2011 10:21
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Thoughts on captchas
If audio CAPTCHA is used it should be clear (I.E. no excessive
background noise), however I prefer those alternatives to visual
CAPTCHAS such as simple number puzzles (E.G. add 5 plus 4 as most
humans can solve these). Audio CAPTCHAS are of no use to people who
are profoundly deaf as well as blind, consequently I think simple
number CAPTCHAS are more inclusive and accessible.
I've noticed that some sites emply CAPTCHA, however they also have an
email address. Provided this is checked (regularly) a blind person can
email the site owner, explain their situation and request assistance.
Of course the email address may, itself attract spam but one can
mitigate against this by splitting it up (E.G. drew dog 101 @ gmail
com (I believe that splitting in this manner can defeat many bots but
a human can read the email address and correctly assemble it.
Kevin
On 19/03/2011, Amro Bilal <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi Daniel and all, I don't have any hearing problems but still find the
> audio alternative a real pain. I usually have to listen to it three or
four
> times before I get it right and many times I ask for a new one. Still,
it's
> better than nothing I suppose until some genius idea comes along.
> BTW, I hear that even visual captchas sometimes are a pest too.
>
> My two pence worth!
>
> Amro
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Daniel McGee
> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 5:54 PM
> Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Thoughts on captchas
>
>
> Hi Jamie, and all. Just two things I would like to add. And they are
> probably been mentioned but if not hear it goes anyway.
> 1. I believe but don't quote me on this but if you sign up for a yahoo
> group
> or many of them through there website rather than doing it through the
> standard email medium you have to at some point do an audio capture. I
> believe there is an audio one for this.
> 2. regarding the listening to the audio capture I find it rediculously
> impossible to hear them and what's more I have a the even more dis
> advantage
> because I am hearing in pared and have been since birth. So yeah that
> really
> gets om my nervs! LOL Honestly if it could just have a man or a woman
> saying
> the letters or numbers what ever it is just on there own. Rather than
the
> background noise.
> Thanks
> Daniel
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Jamie Cuthbertson" <jamie.cuthbertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 5:17 PM
> To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Thoughts on captchas
>
> > Tiddy,
> >
> > No worries, thanks anyway.
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Tiddy Ogg
> > Sent: 19 March 2011 15:52
> > To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Thoughts on captchas
> >
> > Sorry, can't remember.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Jamie Cuthbertson
> > Sent: 19 March 2011 13:46
> > To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Thoughts on captchas
> >
> > Hi Tristram, Tiddy and Keith,
> >
> > Thanks for your input - especially your essay Tristram!! (Smile)
> >
> > All very helpful feedback. Tiddy and Keith, can you remember any of
the
> > sites where you have experienced the numerical captchas? It would be
> good
> > to be able to point these out as an example.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Tristram Llewellyn
> > Sent: 17 March 2011 17:37
> > To: 'jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
> > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Thoughts on captchas
> >
> > I know this isn't much help and probably provocative at best but here
> > goes,
> > I hope it will at least provide some understanding of the issues
> involved.
> >
> > The CAPTCHA is a test designed to tell a human and computer apart. It
> > relies solely on the fact that there are certain tasks a human
(properly
> > equipped with senses) can only do. It has (incorrectly as it turns
out)
> > been assumed that all humans have the same senses, and that assumption
> > that
> > sight makes one human is therefore equally suspect.
> >
> > However one must consider more carefully what is going on before
> assuming
> > this is merely a case of discrimination against non sighted web users.
> >
> > A CAPTCHA test normally taking the form of an image is displayed that
a
> > sighted human deciphers. Because what you get as an image a screen
> reader
> > cannot decipher it and therefore neither can a user of that software
> since
> > their screen reader cannot help the crack the test. Of course other
> > software exists that aims to defeat CAPTCHAS is used both
illegitimately
> > by
> > those who want to break into resources they shouldn't and those who
may
> > for
> > legitimate reasons which to break a CAPTCHA just to get access to
> things.
> > At this point we should be clear both groups described above are
> > essentially
> > breaking the CAPTCHA which is a test of humanness (albeit flawed).
> >
> > Blind users fall into this second category by using various software
to
> > effectively break a CAPTCHA that is sufficiently weak in order to do
so
> > (one
> > such example is Webvisum for Firefox) The other approach is
effectively
> > to
> > hire some eyes like the Solona approach where a human intermediary is
> used
> > as a service to decipher the CAPTCHA.
> >
> > The problem philosophically is to genuinely find a test that a blind
> > person
> > met with a CAPTCHA can genuinely pass which carefully crafted software
> > could
> > not. When one begins to carefully consider what makes a person
uniquely
> > human over a distant internet connection it is actually really quite
> hard
> > and therefore an accessible CAPTCHA is a tautology since by being
> > accessible
> > it no longer functions as an effective test of being a human..
> >
> > The only ways I have actually thought may be of any help are
> re-purposing
> > technologies that are really designed for authentication like OpenID
or
> > using some kind of one time password system. Neither of these are
> really
> > the answer however. Therein lies the rub, there really hasn't been a
> > solution so far offered that really tackles it since blind people are
> more
> > heavily mediated by technology in order to access the websites that
use
> > CAPTCHA it is in effect more difficult to tell them apart from a
sighted
> > fellow human using the same website.
> >
> > Apologies for the small essay but it may help people to understand why
> > this
> > problem seems so intractable rather than it simply being a question of
> > nobody doing anything.
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> > Tristram Llewellyn
> > Sight and Sound Technology
> > Technical Support
> > www.sightandsound.co.uk
> >
> > Mail:
> > Tristram: tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Technical: Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > General - info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Phone:
> > Support line: 0845 634 7979
> >
> > Sight and Sound Technology Limited is a company registered in England
> and
> > Wales, with company number 1408275.
> >
> > Sight and Sound Technology
> > Welton House North Wing
> > Summerhouse Road
> > Moulton Park
> > Northampton
> > NN3 6WD
> >
> > VAT Number - GB 860 2121 66.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Jamie Cuthbertson
> > Sent: 17 March 2011 15:18
> > To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [jaws-uk] Thoughts on captchas
> >
> > Hi there,
> >
> > I know that there's been some discussion of the issue of captchas on
> this
> > list in the past but I'm looking for your thoughts on alternatives
that
> a
> > web designer might use.
> >
> > I'm currently working with a software developer who is considering
> > introducing a captcha on their site but which, even with the audio
> > alternative, is really hard to use. I'm sure that most folk will have
> > encountered these at some stage.
> >
> > I fully understand the reasoning behind the desire to have these as an
> > additional security defence but personally hate them with a vengeance.
> > Having said that, my dislike of them isn't a particularly pro-active
way
> > of
> > helping the company achieve their desire for increased security but at
> the
> > same time wishing to make the site as accessible as possible.
> >
> > My question...does anyone know of any commercially available
accessible
> > captchas or similar security device that will satisfy both
requirements?
> >
> > I also think that some people have mentioned that Firefox has some
> > features
> > that make captcha solving easier - if this is correct, what is it
about
> > Firefox that makes this possible?
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> >
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