[ibis-macro] Re: Comments on BIRD 123.2.2 from Mentor
- From: "Walter Katz" <wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <fangyi_rao@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <kumaran@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, <vladimir_dmitriev-zdorov@xxxxxxxxxx>, <Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx>, <ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:41:43 -0400 (EDT)
Fangyi,
If the model maker did that, then he simply does not define Rx_Rj, Rx_Sj
and Rx_DCD.
Walter
From: fangyi_rao@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:fangyi_rao@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 2:39 PM
To: wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx; kumaran@xxxxxxxxxxxx;
vladimir_dmitriev-zdorov@xxxxxxxxxx; Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx;
ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ibis-macro] Re: Comments on BIRD 123.2.2 from Mentor
Walter;
What I meant is when the Rx_Rj, Rx_Sj and Rx_DCD impairments are internal
to Tx, model maker can combine them into Rx_Clock_Recovery_Rj,
Rx_Clock_Recovery_Sj and Rx_Clock_Recovery_DCD for statistical simulation,
and include them in clock_times in time-domain simulations.
Fangyi
From: Walter Katz [mailto:wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 11:31 AM
To: 'Kumaran Krishnasamy'; RAO,FANGYI (A-USA,ex1);
vladimir_dmitriev-zdorov@xxxxxxxxxx; Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx;
ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ibis-macro] Re: Comments on BIRD 123.2.2 from Mentor
Kumaran, Fangyi,
Comments below (WMK>).
Walter
From: Kumaran Krishnasamy [mailto:kumaran@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 1:39 PM
To: fangyi_rao@xxxxxxxxxxx; wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx;
vladimir_dmitriev-zdorov@xxxxxxxxxx; Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx;
ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ibis-macro] Re: Comments on BIRD 123.2.2 from Mentor
Hi,
To add to Fangyi's first comment, users determine the amounts of jitter
from the standards (for example PCIe, SFI) that describe the max amounts
to be used to stress the Rx.
WMK> You are correct. In this case the User/EDA tool will specify Rx_Rj,
Rx_Sj and Rx_DCD from the particular standard.
Regards,
Kumaran
From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
fangyi_rao@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 10:29 AM
To: wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx; vladimir_dmitriev-zdorov@xxxxxxxxxx;
Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx; ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Comments on BIRD 123.2.2 from Mentor
Walter;
Thanks for the answers. Please see my further comment/question in brown.
How would a model user know how to set Rx_Rj, Rx_Sj and Rx_DCD?
The BIRD states that they are external to the receiver, so it's expected
that model users determine and inject (through simulator) such jitters
into simulations.
In some cases, for example a forwarded clock the User/EDA tool can analyze
the forwarded clock signal, in which case the EDA tool would be directed
to use these jitter impairments.
However, if the reference clock is generated inside the Rx chip, then the
model maker does know these jitter impairments, and can set them inside
the AMI model.
In that case they are not external to Rx. Can't they be combined into
Rx_Clock_Recovery_Rj, Rx_Clock_Recovery_Sj and Rx_Clock_Recovery_DCD? (Sj
could be tricky but can be handled)
WMK> Are only Rx_Clock_Recovery_Rj, Rx_Clock_Recovery_Sj and
Rx_Clock_Recovery_DCD Are only used in statistical simulation (unless the
perverse case when Rx AMI_GetWave does not return clock_times). Rx_Rj,
Rx_Sj and Rx_DCD are used in both statistical and time domain time domain
simulations, so cannot be combined with Rx_Clock_Recovery_Rj,
Rx_Clock_Recovery_Sj and Rx_Clock_Recovery_DCD.
Fangyi
From: fangyi_rao@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:fangyi_rao@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 9:02 PM
To: wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx; vladimir_dmitriev-zdorov@xxxxxxxxxx;
Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx; ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ibis-macro] Re: Comments on BIRD 123.2.2 from Mentor
Hi, Walter;
I wonder why Rx_Rj, Rx_Sj and Rx_DCD are Rx model parameters. They are
defined as impairments external to receiver and serve the purpose of
jitter budget analyses. So they are simulation inputs but not intrinsic Rx
parameters. They should be set by model users instead of model developers.
EDA tools can include them in simulations by allowing users to specify
their values from the simulator.
Regards,
Fangyi
From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Walter Katz
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 4:18 PM
To: 'Dmitriev-Zdorov, Vladimir'; 'Muranyi, Arpad'; 'IBIS-ATM'
Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Comments on BIRD 123.2.2 from Mentor
Vladimir,
We are planning to discuss the Jitter BIRD Tuesday. I think we can resolve
all of the questions at that time.
Walter
From: Dmitriev-Zdorov, Vladimir
[mailto:vladimir_dmitriev-zdorov@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 3:35 PM
To: wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx; Muranyi, Arpad; 'IBIS-ATM'
Subject: RE: [ibis-macro] Re: Comments on BIRD 123.2.2 from Mentor
Walter,
After reading your comments, I'm more satisfied with the document.
Otherwise it's hard to understand some things.
Still, I have a few remaining suggestions, shown in a few additional
comments.
Vladimir
From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Walter Katz
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 5:00 PM
To: Muranyi, Arpad; 'IBIS-ATM'
Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Comments on BIRD 123.2.2 from Mentor
Arpad,
I am including my response to Vladimir's comments in the enclosed
document. I stand by my earlier statement that I believe the current
specification defines each parameter mathematically precisely and
indicates how the parameters are to be used in either the statistical or
time domain simulations. I would not object to adding additional words
would be helpful to explain the precise mathematical definitions with "C"
code or other standard statistical function definitions.
Walter
From: Muranyi, Arpad [mailto:Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 5:55 PM
To: Walter Katz; 'IBIS-ATM'
Subject: RE: [ibis-macro] Re: Comments on BIRD 123.2.2 from Mentor
Walter,
Did you look at the comments Vladimir inserted in the
attached Word document? I think addressing those would
be a good start in this discussion. But there are some
specifics even in the body of the email from Vladimir:
"The Bird does not seem to be logically complete (does not cover all
cases, such as Time domain and Statistical flow), or does not provide all
necessary parameters affecting the results (such as either giving
frequency content of Tx Gaussian jitter, or making it defined as white
uncorrelated jitter, etc.) "
Thanks,
Arpad
========================================================
From: Walter Katz [mailto:wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 4:45 PM
To: Muranyi, Arpad; 'IBIS-ATM'
Subject: RE: [ibis-macro] Re: Comments on BIRD 123.2.2 from Mentor
Arpad, Vladimir,
There was great effort to define each of the parameters in strict
mathematical terms. Please indicate specific parameters that the BIRD does
not either define mathematically precisely, or indicate how the parameters
are to be used in either the statistical or time domain simulations.
Walter
From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 4:43 PM
To: IBIS-ATM
Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Comments on BIRD 123.2.2 from Mentor
Walter,
Here is the email (with attachment) I mentioned in the
ATM meeting today. There was no response to it since
I posted it. I think it would be good to get some
discussion going on these questions/comments.
Thanks,
Arpad
From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:53 AM
To: IBIS-ATM
Subject: [ibis-macro] Comments on BIRD 123.2.2 from Mentor
Walter and All,
I am forwarding Vladimir's comments on BIRD 123.2.2 to this
list for discussion. Please look at his comments which are
in the attached Word document. Since Vladimir is also on
this email list, please direct your answers, questions and
comments to him. (I don't want to be the middle man in such
conversations.).
The general problem is ambiguity of given definitions when it comes to
implementation in EDA tool.
The Bird does not seem to be logically complete (does not cover all cases,
such as Time domain and Statistical flow), or does not provide all
necessary parameters affecting the results (such as either giving
frequency content of Tx Gaussian jitter, or making it defined as white
uncorrelated jitter, etc.)
Thanks,
Arpad
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