The examples you cite Philip extract energy whereas the ones mentioned by Allen create more energy than is put into them. Jack. Not the way I see it Jack.. Energy cannot be created or destroyed.. All energy, (to do work) is extracted from somewhere or something. MS tries to ridicule "free energy" by associating it with creation, in the manner you mentioned, simply because they do not accept or understand the existence of the aether as a source, as they do see the sun and tides. I repeat my assertion, nuclear energy once was in the same category as aether is today. I do appreciate these "comebacks" Jack, because in forming my answer, I am sort of self instructing and reinforcing my faith in my own thought processes.. Keeps me young. Philip.