[GeoStL] Re: National Forest also needs to be clairified-the 3 finders did not bookmark a cache in a NF-RE: Re: Island cache!
- From: "Jim Bensman" <junkmailno@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:49:29 -0600
-
Andrew,
On the wheelchair issue, of course not. The issue is not making caches so
everyone can find them. The issue for me is as you previously said the
spirit of Geocaching. The spirit of Geocaching from the start was finding
something with your GPS. What does solving a puzzle have to do with what
Geocaching was started to be?
Geocaching has never been a democracy. Geocaching is not a free for all.
There are rules. Gc.com makes the rules and we have to live with them.
Some I have agreed with. Locationless caches were getting away from the
spirit of Geocaching. It got so bad, you could get a find by finding a
yellow jeep. So they got rid of them. Some rules I don't like. I hope they
will ban puzzle caches or spin them off to something like waypointing.
When the nearest 25 unfound caches to me were all puzzles that had nothing
to do with caching or navigation, I started getting answers to them and
wanting them banned. If I could have gotten the final by taking a hike
somewhere to find a container with the answer, I would have (i.e., have two
methods: figure out the puzzle or take a hike). What turned me off to them
was the area was getting flooded with puzzles that had nothing to do with
caching or navigation.
Yes some people enjoy puzzles. But I do not think that is a good reason to
have a cache that requires a puzzle to solve. Some people enjoy hunting.
What if we get 100 caches in the area that requires you to kill certain
kinds of animals to find it? Some people enjoy flying. What if we got 100
caches in the area that you had to fly to a certain designation before you
could find the cache? There are all kinds of things that have nothing to do
with Geocaching or even navigation that someone could set a requirement to
do before finding a cache. That is not what Geocaching was started for.
That is why I do not think they should be allowed.
While it saves you time, getting the answers to a puzzle cache is getting
help on something that has nothing to do with what Geocaching started as:
finding something with your GPS. While I have no problem with PAF or group
hunts, they save you time on finding something with your GPS. The way I
look at it, if PAF and group finding is OK, so is puzzle answer sharing.
This is what Geocaching has evolved to-I liked it better the way it used to
be. SLAGA used to have group hunts on a regular basis. While sometimes you
really had to help someone, generally the cache was not removed until
everyone found it. But those were the old days.
Jim Bensman
"Nature Bats Last"
> -----Original Message-----
> From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching-
> bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andrew Senger
> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 11:13 AM
> To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [GeoStL] Re: National Forest also needs to be clairified-the 3
> finders did not bookmark a cache in a NF-RE: Re: Island cache!
>
> -
> Jim,
>
> There are cachers in wheelchairs. Should we ban caches that aren't
> wheelchair-accessible, simply because that group can't find them?
>
> I have no problems with your feelings toward puzzle caches. In fact, I
> respect your opinions, even if I don't agree with them. However, if
> you don't like them, don't find them. If you don't want to spend some
> time solving a puzzle at home, don't -- find other caches to find,
> hide caches, maintain other caches, or just go walking -- I know you
> enjoy it. However, don't boycott something and then go out and find
> it.
>
> How is solving a puzzle different than caching in a group? It depends
> on how you play. Many groups don't do the "all for one" attitude I've
> seen (and like); some have each member look, then when you find it,
> you step away, wait a bit, then say "I found it." As each person finds
> it, they stand away -- until everyone finds it. It takes more time,
> but it keeps the spirit of the game there.
>
> To me, getting the finals to a puzzle is nothing like caching in a
> group -- it's akin to getting the answers to your homework. Sure, the
> teacher doesn't know any different, but you haven't gotten anything
> out of it (other than a nice walk, geocaching wise).
>
> I agree that the hides are worse, and I haven't been around as long as
> you have. However, it doesn't stop me from the hunt. I almost always
> cache with my dad, and that's what I like about it -- time with him
> (and soon, with my son) enjoying the outdoors. It's much better than
> Facebook or Survivor.
>
> Personally, my opinions about cache hides are plain and simple: If you
> don't like it, don't do it. If enough people follow the mantra, cache
> hiders will adapt to their audience.
>
> Andrew Senger
> asenger@xxxxxxxxx
> http://www.yawetag.net
> "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. He's also
> postmaster and probably traffic cop, too. All the jobs for sports
> referees are probably filled, though." --Lemel Hebert-Williams
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Jim Bensman <junkmailno@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> > -
> > My turn to rant :)
> >
> > IMHO, in the last couple of years puzzle caches got out of control.
> I think
> > they should be banned. Or at least ones that have nothing to do with
> > Geocaching or navigation. They banned additional logging
> requirements
> > because they were getting out of control, did the same with
> locationless
> > caches after the yellow jeep, and virtual caches were eliminated and
> > converted to waypointing. IMHO, Geocaching should still be about
> finding
> > something with your GPS (or at least related to navigation). That is
> what
> > Geocaching was started for-it was not about spending hours at your
> computer
> > trying to solve a puzzle. I do not think you should have to spend
> > hours/days/or weeks behind your computer before finding a cache. It
> should
> > be about getting OUTSIDE! Yesterday I found two puzzle caches that
> took me
> > about 15 minutes to solve. They were about the history of Geocaching
> and
> > treated me to a nice walk on a new trail. I don't mind something
> like that
> > and if most puzzles were like that, I would not support banning them.
> If
> > people want to show their puzzle skills, they can join a puzzle club
> or how
> > about starting puzzlecaching? Or at least have the puzzle cache
> provide a
> > way to find the cache outdoors (have another container with the
> answer you
> > have to find). I favor keeping Geocaching what it was started for.
> What
> > does solving a puzzle have to do with "geo" or "caching?" I also
> wish there
> > was a way to filter out the puzzle caches. Since there are more than
> > puzzles under the ?, there is no way to filter them out.
> >
> > I think Geocaching was much better in the early days-you had mostly
> high
> > quality caches, neat spots or a nice walk, no puzzles, no play
> grounds, no
> > throw away series, no LPCs, no guard rails, etc. There was also
> numbers
> > competition back then. I had more enjoyment competing back then.
> >
> > What is the difference between getting the answer to a puzzle and PAF
> or
> > logging a cache someone else in the group found?
> >
> > Jim Bensman
> > "Nature Bats Last"
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching-
> >> bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Michael Rogers
> >> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:42 AM
> >> To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [GeoStL] Re: National Forest also needs to be clairified-
> the 3
> >> finders did not bookmark a cache in a NF-RE: Re: Island cache!
> >>
> >> -
> >> Okay, this is where I take issue. What's the point of making puzzle
> >> caches if everyone is "entitled" to find them? That's the point of
> >> puzzle caches, especially the tougher ones...some people will be
> able
> >> to figure them out and some won't. That's just the way it is.
> >> I have had puzzles that took me the better part of a year of off and
> on
> >> working on them to figure out. Once I actually found the cache, I
> felt
> >> rewarded for the hard work I put into it. Now, how hollow of a
> victory
> >> would it have been had I just been told where the cache was? I have
> >> also placed some more challenging puzzles, too. As an owner of some,
> I
> >> put the effort in making the puzzle and it would feel like a slap in
> my
> >> face to have someone just give out the final coordinates to someone
> >> because they didn't want to do the work.
> >>
> >> Now, don't get me wrong, if someone is caching alongside another
> person
> >> then that's one of those. That happens and it's not that big of a
> deal
> >> to me. What is a big deal is someone just being given the
> coordinates
> >> because they don't want to put out the effort.
> >>
> >> -Michael
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Jason Collier <jcollier@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 7:07:43 AM
> >> Subject: [GeoStL] Re: National Forest also needs to be clairified-
> the 3
> >> finders did not bookmark a cache in a NF-RE: Re: Island cache!
> >>
> >> -
> >> Getting the answers to puzzles that are difficult is not an issue
> with
> >> me, personally. And especially don't mind in the case of myotis who
> >> provides the free trail maps which have saved me hours and, I'm
> sure,
> >> much tick removal time.
> >>
> >> Some people don't like the puzzles and shouldn't be kept from
> visiting
> >> the places where the final resides just because they don't know how
> to
> >> solve it. Just my humble opinion. :)
> >>
> >> FWIW, I do give the puzzles the old college try but if I just can't
> >> figure it out, I'll ask for help.
> >>
> >> Jason Collier
> >> C3GPS.com
> >> 314-623-0263
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ****************************************
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> >>
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> >> Missouri Geocaching land policies --> http://tinyurl.com/lgyy84
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ****************************************
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> > list, click -----> //www.freelists.org/list/geocaching
> >
> > Missouri Caches Scheduled to be Archived http://tinyurl.com/87cqw
> > Missouri Geocaching land policies --> http://tinyurl.com/lgyy84
> > Missouri Geocachers Forums -->http://mogeo.ipbhost.com/index.php
> >
> >
>
>
> ****************************************
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> list, click -----> //www.freelists.org/list/geocaching
>
> Missouri Caches Scheduled to be Archived http://tinyurl.com/87cqw
> Missouri Geocaching land policies --> http://tinyurl.com/lgyy84
> Missouri Geocachers Forums -->http://mogeo.ipbhost.com/index.php
>
****************************************
For List Info or To make _ANY_ changes to your account, including unsubscribing
from this
list, click -----> //www.freelists.org/list/geocaching
Missouri Caches Scheduled to be Archived http://tinyurl.com/87cqw
Missouri Geocaching land policies --> http://tinyurl.com/lgyy84
Missouri Geocachers Forums -->http://mogeo.ipbhost.com/index.php
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