You all know that my standing vs RaW is that they have taken a divorce
from logic very long ago
I 'm sorry but I cannot argue anymore
Στις 2019-04-04 10:56, Dimitris Stavr. έγραψε:
Makis please try to be open minded
a supply CHAIN is blocked because of presence of enemy corps, enemy to whom?
to the depot's owner
a supply ROUTE is blocked because of presence of enemy corps, enemy to whom?
to the corps trying to trace supply
this is the similarity i see, and this also the difference between yours and
Yannis' cases
-------------------------
FROM: eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis <makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
SENT: Thursday, April 4, 2019 10:42
TO: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
SUBJECT: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
Dimitris sums it up nicely. But even so, the yellow sentence (Yanni's point)
is clarified by purple parenthesis "same rules as for blocking supply chain"
therefore we are back at my point.
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 2:09 AM Dimitris Stavr. <poliorkitis@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
maybe that helps
7.4.2.1.1 Corps Depot Supply: A corps in the same area as a depot being
part of a valid supply chain costs half a money point to supply. Other corps
up to 3 unblocked areas away from a depot pay the number of areas they
are away from a depot in a valid supply chain in money points. For
example, a corps 3 areas away pays 3 money points to get supply. The route
through intervening areas TRACED FROM A CORPS TO A DEPOT may not be blocked
by forces (same rules as for blocking a supply chain (see 7.2.3.2.1).
Makis mentioned the "purple" case.
Imho, Yannis' case is the "yellow".
a Spanish depot could be a part of a valid supply chain, no matter
intervening prussian corps.
but what is happening if a French corps has to trace a route from his area to
the depot? as i get it, "yellow" describes forces hostile to the corps that
is trying to trace a route, and in Yannis' case French corps have to trace a
route and in intervening areas there are prussian corps, that are enemy corps
for the french.
it says clearly that it is not the depot who sends convoys, but a corps that
tries to trace a route from his area to the depot.
-------------------------
FROM: eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Yannis Sykamias <ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx>
SENT: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 23:36
TO: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
SUBJECT: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
If we assume that this is the case then a corps may not trace supply from a
depot if an unbesieged enemy corps stands between the depot and the corps,
correct?
-------------------------
FROM: eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis <makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
SENT: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 22:15
TO: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
SUBJECT:[eiagreek] Re: Some questions
don't you consider this a definition of unblocked supply?
_"not blocked by the presence of unbesieged enemy corp"_
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On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:58 PM Yannis Sykamias <ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Sorry but I still do not understand how this is linked to my question.
What the rules here describe is the validity of the supply chain in order to
have your depots properly "connected".
This issue is different that providing supply to a corps which is described
in 7.4.2.1. My argument was not about the establishment of depots as supply
source but on tracing supply to a corps through an unblocked route and
eventually the definition of the unblocked route for this purpose.
-------------------------
FROM:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis <makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
SENT: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 12:10
TO: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
SUBJECT:[eiagreek] Re: Some questions
actually I found it, there is a definition of unblocked. We had to check a
bit earlier in the handbook, back to basics as they say
7.2.3.2 SUPPLY CHAIN DEFINITION: A "supply chain" is a series of ONE MAJOR
POWER'S DEPOTS that are placed no more than two areas apart and lead
_back to a supply source of that major power._
(This proves the supply chain is Spanish, not half-spanish half-french)
7.2.3.2.1: A "valid" supply chain is one where the intervening areas between
any of a supply chain's depots areNOT BLOCKED BY THE PRESENCE OF
UNBESIEGEDENEMY CORPS,garrisons, guerrillas, cossacks and/or freikorps
(EXCEPTION: these enemy forces do not block an area if that area also
contains an unbesieged friendly corps or garrison).
(This proves the supply chain is valid since Prussia is not an enemy of
Spain)
there is no mention of destination as part of supply so the discussion was
based on assumptions
Unless you find something different in the handbook I believe this issue
closes: An empire can supply another empire, if there is a corps in
between_not at war_ with the empire that_owns_ the supply chain.
On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 12:53 PM Makis Xiroyannis <makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
none else has an opinion on this?
On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 10:13 PM Yannis Sykamias <ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
We need something to light up the spirit after so many days of dormant
condition...
Once more we are in the loop on trying to apply reality in game rules...
Anyway, let us all share our opinion and move on.
-------------------------
FROM:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Dimitris Stavr. <poliorkitis@xxxxxxxxxxx>
SENT: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 8:21:14 PM
TO: Makis Xiroyannis; eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
SUBJECT: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
calm down gents, we had loooong time to do anything in the game and much
mooooore to have a dispute.
see it as a warm up to get back in business.
regarding fleets, i assume it is obvious what kind of troops they carry, so
if you see a Russian fleet full of French entering London, for sure it is not
just to see Thames.
in the same sense, if Prussians have a mission to block the supply of a
French army, and see Spanish caravans passing by their camp heading for an
area where there are only French troops, for sure it is not to just say hi!
7.4.2.1 mentions depot and unblocked route. doesn't say something about
nationality of the depot or who transports to whom. i suppose we all agree
that a friendly depot works as an own depot in terms of supply.
so, i see 2 points: 1) a spanish depot is like a french depot, 2) the route
from the deopt is considered blocked if enemy corps are present, and i cannot
see why we should consider about the nationality of the depot, neither the
convoys'
so, i'm closer to Yannis view.
could be interesting if at the sane area were French AND spanish troops. in
this no problem for Spanish troops, but what about french?
-------------------------
FROM:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis <makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
SENT: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 18:35
TO: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
SUBJECT: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
Broken, because all France had to do was hire Spanish or Russian fleets to
unload French corps in London, free of charge, without GB being able to do
anything about it while at peace with other nations, and get his
unconditional. Is there a similar case with your supply so that it is broken
the other way?
Also, in the fleet example, hostile TROOPS are being carried. In your
example, supply - not military forces - are carried.
Everyone, please vote so that we move on.
On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:20 PM Yannis Sykamias <ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I agree that the game might be broken if this stands but in the opposite
direction! 😛
7.4.2.1 PAYING FOR DEPOT SUPPLY: Any corps in a depot area or which can trace
an unblocked route to a depot may use depot supply. Besieged port city
garrisons (regardless of size) may also use depot supply (see 7.4.3 and
7.4.4). The costs for all corps and separate garrisons are summed and any
fraction rounded up, that amount then being deducted from that major power's
current monetary total. A major power may not use depot supply for a corps if
it doesn't have enough money to pay the cost and such corps must instead
forage for supply.
There is no definition of an unblocked route but if two nations are at war
then it would make sense to block any supply targeting your enemy regardless
of the supply source.
Why you consider attacking a neutral fleet that carries enemy troops logical?
Do you believe that the enemy troops are sitting on the deck with t-shirts
stating their nationality and intention? 😉
To me it is the same issue and since it is allowed in naval it should be
similar to land.
I would like to hear the opinion of the other group members though.
-------------------------
FROM:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis <makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
SENT: Monday, April 1, 2019 21:16
TO: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
SUBJECT:[eiagreek] Re: Some questions
1. if you found something in the rules, by all means, post it here,
otherwise, how do you explain that you know the destination of a convoy, and
you intercept it as well without being at war? It made sense to me when it
was French (with which you are at war and care not for the destination - you
just stop it) but it does not make sense to me when it is a friendly force.
The only case I could find that clearly opposes this logic (attacking a
neutral/friendly force) is when a neutral fleet carries enemy corps, but
there the reasoning is obvious, the game is broken otherwise.
2. No off course, no need to pay costs in that case, since your movement is
not complete. Try "part 1", "part 2"
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On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 9:04 PM Yannis Sykamias <ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I am not sure I agree with the case of Spanish supply on French troops given
that the destination is an enemy one but in any case we may discuss.
Regarding my second question I am fine with playing corps by corps however in
this case I will not post any supply costs until all moves are fully
completed in order not to reveal potential intention to move further or not.
Agreed?
-------------------------
FROM:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis <makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
SENT: Monday, April 1, 2019 18:57
TO: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
SUBJECT:[eiagreek] Re: Some questions
_One more clarification can Prussian corps block supply from Spanish depot to
French troops? _
Again not sure, but unless in Prussian territory, I don't think so. Prussia
is not at war with Spain, they would not intercept Spanish convoys.
_Last, given that we will have many moves some of which might move through
garrisoned depots, how do we plan to play this?_
_Corps by corps?_
_Country by country?_
_Do we move stacks on area by area basis wait for a decision from the depot
owner and then move on???_
Play country-by-country. Movement is always assumed to be corps-by-corps even
when we move stacks. When there is a corps moving that enemy decision is
required before further movement, note it on the map so that the opponent can
reply. Then continue movement from there.
If the decision affects more than one move, wait for that then continue with
your remaining moves.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 6:32 PM Yannis Sykamias <ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Given that no one else replied on this I assume we are all on the same page.
One more clarification can Prussian corps block supply from Spanish depot to
French troops?
Last, given that we will have many moves some of which might move through
garrisoned depots, how do we plan to play this?
Corps by corps?
Country by country?
Do we move stacks on area by area basis wait for a decision from the depot
owner and then move on???
I am just asking in order to know how to prepare the cb files.
-------------------------
FROM:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Dimitris Stavr.
<poliorkitis@xxxxxxxxxxx>
SENT: Thursday, March 28, 2019 20:41
TO: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
SUBJECT:[eiagreek] Re: Some questions
Except his 1st paragraph i agree with Makis 😛
apologies from my side as well
-------------------------
FROM:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis <makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
SENT: Thursday, March 28, 2019 7:45:22 PM
TO: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
SUBJECT: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
_Apologies for the prolonged delay of this turn but day to day issues as well
as synchronization of communication among 4 people are not always
combining... _
You are waking us out of our slumber. Expect heavy losses.
_Assuming Prussia enters a location where France and Spain both have armies.
Is the Spanish army requested to immediately leave the battlefield (or
declare war if feasible) or it has the option to remain in the area and
retire behind the city walls (if this is feasible). _ The rules say(7.3.8.4):
"Must now leave the area, moving to any adjacent area" I don't think retiring
behind walls is included.
The opposite scenario, Spain enters an area where Prussian and British forces
are located. Do the Prussians need to leave the area if the British decide to
retire behind the city walls (assuming of course that this is feasible)?
Yes because we are at step 4 at this stage(7.3.8.4), before step 7(7.3.8.7)
when we are preparing for battle, and at THAT stage the defender has the
option "withdraw behind walls"
_What happens if a Prussian corps sieges Namur (garrisoned both by french and
Spanish forces) ? What is the forage value that France will roll in Namur
(currently there are 5 Spanish factors and 1 French) in a city with 3 spires.
_
See 10.3.3 Spanish forces immediately surrender and may be redeployed during
next reinforcement. French garrison forages and fights alone.
_Can Prussian corps block supply leading to Spanish forces if they are
originated from French depots? _
Don't remember a specific rule on it, but it makes sense that Prussia blocks
supply since wagons are French and cannot move over hostile corps for
whatever reason.
if anyone has a different understanding on any of the above please say so.
M.
On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 6:09 PM Yannis Sykamias <ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Apologies for the prolonged delay of this turn but day to day issues as well
as synchronization of communication among 4 people are not always
combining...
Some questions to the group in order to clarify in advance some issues:
All issues occur in the case Spain or Prussia (respectively) are engaged in
battle with other nations' armies present in the area.
Assuming Prussia enters a location where France and Spain both have armies.
Is the Spanish army requested to immediately leave the battlefield (or
declare war if feasible) or it has the option to remain in the area and
retire behind the city walls (if this is feasible).
The opposite scenario, Spain enters an area where Prussian and British forces
are located. Do the Prussians need to leave the area if the British decide to
retire behind the city walls (assuming of course that this is feasible)?
What happens if a Prussian corps sieges Namur (garrisoned both by french and
Spanish forces) ? What is the forage value that France will roll in Namur
(currently there are 5 Spanish factors and 1 French) in a city with 3 spires.
Can Prussian corps block supply leading to Spanish forces if they are
originated from French depots?
Thank you!
