Makis, apologies if i made it more personal than should be. some points
1) Whenever is needed i have the guts to change my mind if proven wrong
2) Rules "help" to decide what is right and wrong. I don't know every rule, but
i guess i have the right to read them and if i see something that makes me
change my mind, i will do so. regardless what suits me or not. please don't
challenge my integrity.
3) In the initial email Yiannis puts a misplaced question. according to my
interpretation of 7.4.2.1.1 the depots provide supply only if a corps can trace
a route up to them (the yellow). if this is not the right interpretation, we
need to go back, find the right one and then continue or not the discussion.
and your answer is in conflict as well since the route is traced from the corps
and not wagons are sent from the depot.
4) this is how you end your last mail Unless you find something different in
the handbook I believe this issue closes: An empire can supply another empire,
if there is a corps in betweennot at war with the empire thatowns the supply
chain.
7.4.2.1.1 to me is something different
bottom line, the value i see from this kind of discussion is to argue in order
to find the best interpretation / implementation of the rules.
to me such discussions offer motivation for more rule studying.
that's why changing mind after more rule studying, more/different opinions,
different argumentation and critical thinking SHOULD be an option for everyone.
I don't participate in such discussions just to try to impose my opinion to
others, and i never consider as argument You got an answer that suited you a
while back, accepting my reasoning, but you decline the same reasoning later
when it is the other way round and does not suit you
i will try to persuade you with my arguments and you have all right to oppose
them with your own arguments based on booklet, experience and "common sense"
(even if it rarely happens).
but this is my approach.
again apologies if this provokes the discussion or makes anyone feel
uncomfortable.
________________________________
From: eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis <makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 11:08
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
If this is how you see this example? In that case, then why did you agree with
the following previous question:
Can Prussian corps block supply leading to Spanish forces if they are
originated from French depots?
Don't remember a specific rule on it, but it makes sense that Prussia blocks
supply since wagons are French and cannot move over hostile corps for whatever
reason.
You accepted that reasoning. If you accuse me of not being open minded, don't
you give me grounds to accuse you of one-sided implementation? You got an
answer that suited you a while back, accepting my reasoning, but you decline
the same reasoning later when it is the other way round and does not suit you.
So try to be open-minded. You can't have both cases blocking supply.
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:56 AM Dimitris Stavr.
<poliorkitis@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:poliorkitis@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Makis please try to be open minded
a supply chain is blocked because of presence of enemy corps, enemy to whom? to
the depot's owner
a supply route is blocked because of presence of enemy corps, enemy to whom? to
the corps trying to trace supply
this is the similarity i see, and this also the difference between yours and
Yannis' cases
________________________________
From: eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis
<makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 10:42
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
Dimitris sums it up nicely. But even so, the yellow sentence (Yanni's point) is
clarified by purple parenthesis "same rules as for blocking supply chain"
therefore we are back at my point.
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 2:09 AM Dimitris Stavr.
<poliorkitis@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:poliorkitis@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
maybe that helps
7.4.2.1.1 Corps Depot Supply: A corps in the same area as a depot being
part of a valid supply chain costs half a money point to supply. Other corps
up to 3 unblocked areas away from a depot pay the number of areas they
are away from a depot in a valid supply chain in money points. For
example, a corps 3 areas away pays 3 money points to get supply. The route
through intervening areas traced from a corps to a depot may not be
blocked by forces (same rules as for blocking a supply chain (see 7.2.3.2.1).
Makis mentioned the "purple" case.
Imho, Yannis' case is the "yellow".
a Spanish depot could be a part of a valid supply chain, no matter intervening
prussian corps.
but what is happening if a French corps has to trace a route from his area to
the depot? as i get it, "yellow" describes forces hostile to the corps that is
trying to trace a route, and in Yannis' case French corps have to trace a route
and in intervening areas there are prussian corps, that are enemy corps for the
french.
it says clearly that it is not the depot who sends convoys, but a corps that
tries to trace a route from his area to the depot.
________________________________
From: eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Yannis Sykamias <ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 23:36
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
If we assume that this is the case then a corps may not trace supply from a
depot if an unbesieged enemy corps stands between the depot and the corps,
correct?
________________________________
From: eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis
<makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 22:15
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
don't you consider this a definition of unblocked supply?
"not blocked by the presence of unbesieged enemy corp"
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On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:58 PM Yannis Sykamias
<ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Sorry but I still do not understand how this is linked to my question.
What the rules here describe is the validity of the supply chain in order to
have your depots properly “connected”.
This issue is different that providing supply to a corps which is described in
7.4.2.1. My argument was not about the establishment of depots as supply source
but on tracing supply to a corps through an unblocked route and eventually the
definition of the unblocked route for this purpose.
________________________________
From:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis
<makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 12:10
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
actually I found it, there is a definition of unblocked. We had to check a bit
earlier in the handbook, back to basics as they say
7.2.3.2 SUPPLY CHAIN DEFINITION: A "supply chain" is a series of one major
power's depots that are placed no more than two areas apart and lead
back to a supply source of that major power.
(This proves the supply chain is Spanish, not half-spanish half-french)
7.2.3.2.1: A "valid" supply chain is one where the intervening areas between
any of a supply chain's depots arenot blocked by the presence of
unbesiegedenemy corps,garrisons, guerrillas, cossacks and/or freikorps
(EXCEPTION: these enemy forces do not block an area if that area also contains
an unbesieged friendly corps or garrison).
(This proves the supply chain is valid since Prussia is not an enemy of Spain)
there is no mention of destination as part of supply so the discussion was
based on assumptions
Unless you find something different in the handbook I believe this issue
closes: An empire can supply another empire, if there is a corps in betweennot
at war with the empire thatowns the supply chain.
On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 12:53 PM Makis Xiroyannis
<makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
none else has an opinion on this?
On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 10:13 PM Yannis Sykamias
<ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
We need something to light up the spirit after so many days of dormant
condition...
Once more we are in the loop on trying to apply reality in game rules...
Anyway, let us all share our opinion and move on.
________________________________
From:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Dimitris Stavr. <poliorkitis@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:poliorkitis@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 8:21:14 PM
To: Makis Xiroyannis; eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
calm down gents, we had loooong time to do anything in the game and much
mooooore to have a dispute.
see it as a warm up to get back in business.
regarding fleets, i assume it is obvious what kind of troops they carry, so if
you see a Russian fleet full of French entering London, for sure it is not just
to see Thames.
in the same sense, if Prussians have a mission to block the supply of a French
army, and see Spanish caravans passing by their camp heading for an area where
there are only French troops, for sure it is not to just say hi!
7.4.2.1 mentions depot and unblocked route. doesn't say something about
nationality of the depot or who transports to whom. i suppose we all agree that
a friendly depot works as an own depot in terms of supply.
so, i see 2 points: 1) a spanish depot is like a french depot, 2) the route
from the deopt is considered blocked if enemy corps are present, and i cannot
see why we should consider about the nationality of the depot, neither the
convoys'
so, i'm closer to Yannis view.
could be interesting if at the sane area were French AND spanish troops. in
this no problem for Spanish troops, but what about french?
________________________________
From:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis
<makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 18:35
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
Broken, because all France had to do was hire Spanish or Russian fleets to
unload French corps in London, free of charge, without GB being able to do
anything about it while at peace with other nations, and get his unconditional.
Is there a similar case with your supply so that it is broken the other way?
Also, in the fleet example, hostile TROOPS are being carried. In your example,
supply - not military forces - are carried.
Everyone, please vote so that we move on.
On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:20 PM Yannis Sykamias
<ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I agree that the game might be broken if this stands but in the opposite
direction! 😛
7.4.2.1 PAYING FOR DEPOT SUPPLY: Any corps in a depot area or which can trace
an unblocked route to a depot may use depot supply. Besieged port city
garrisons (regardless of size) may also use depot supply (see 7.4.3 and 7.4.4).
The costs for all corps and separate garrisons are summed and any fraction
rounded up, that amount then being deducted from that major power's current
monetary total. A major power may not use depot supply for a corps if it
doesn't have enough money to pay the cost and such corps must instead forage
for supply.
There is no definition of an unblocked route but if two nations are at war then
it would make sense to block any supply targeting your enemy regardless of the
supply source.
Why you consider attacking a neutral fleet that carries enemy troops logical?
Do you believe that the enemy troops are sitting on the deck with t-shirts
stating their nationality and intention? 😉
To me it is the same issue and since it is allowed in naval it should be
similar to land.
I would like to hear the opinion of the other group members though.
________________________________
From:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis
<makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2019 21:16
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
1. if you found something in the rules, by all means, post it here, otherwise,
how do you explain that you know the destination of a convoy, and you intercept
it as well without being at war? It made sense to me when it was French (with
which you are at war and care not for the destination - you just stop it) but
it does not make sense to me when it is a friendly force. The only case I could
find that clearly opposes this logic (attacking a neutral/friendly force) is
when a neutral fleet carries enemy corps, but there the reasoning is obvious,
the game is broken otherwise.
2. No off course, no need to pay costs in that case, since your movement is not
complete. Try "part 1", "part 2"
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On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 9:04 PM Yannis Sykamias
<ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I am not sure I agree with the case of Spanish supply on French troops given
that the destination is an enemy one but in any case we may discuss.
Regarding my second question I am fine with playing corps by corps however in
this case I will not post any supply costs until all moves are fully completed
in order not to reveal potential intention to move further or not. Agreed?
________________________________
From:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis
<makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2019 18:57
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
One more clarification can Prussian corps block supply from Spanish depot to
French troops?
Again not sure, but unless in Prussian territory, I don't think so. Prussia is
not at war with Spain, they would not intercept Spanish convoys.
Last, given that we will have many moves some of which might move through
garrisoned depots, how do we plan to play this?
Corps by corps?
Country by country?
Do we move stacks on area by area basis wait for a decision from the depot
owner and then move on???
Play country-by-country. Movement is always assumed to be corps-by-corps even
when we move stacks. When there is a corps moving that enemy decision is
required before further movement, note it on the map so that the opponent can
reply. Then continue movement from there.
If the decision affects more than one move, wait for that then continue with
your remaining moves.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 6:32 PM Yannis Sykamias
<ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Given that no one else replied on this I assume we are all on the same page.
One more clarification can Prussian corps block supply from Spanish depot to
French troops?
Last, given that we will have many moves some of which might move through
garrisoned depots, how do we plan to play this?
Corps by corps?
Country by country?
Do we move stacks on area by area basis wait for a decision from the depot
owner and then move on???
I am just asking in order to know how to prepare the cb files.
________________________________
From:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Dimitris Stavr.
<poliorkitis@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:poliorkitis@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2019 20:41
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
Except his 1st paragraph i agree with Makis 😛
apologies from my side as well
________________________________
From:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Makis Xiroyannis
<makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:makis.xiroyannis@xxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2019 7:45:22 PM
To: eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eiagreek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [eiagreek] Re: Some questions
Apologies for the prolonged delay of this turn but day to day issues as well as
synchronization of communication among 4 people are not always combining...
You are waking us out of our slumber. Expect heavy losses.
Assuming Prussia enters a location where France and Spain both have armies. Is
the Spanish army requested to immediately leave the battlefield (or declare war
if feasible) or it has the option to remain in the area and retire behind the
city walls (if this is feasible).
The rules say(7.3.8.4): "Must now leave the area, moving to any adjacent area"
I don't think retiring behind walls is included.
The opposite scenario, Spain enters an area where Prussian and British forces
are located. Do the Prussians need to leave the area if the British decide to
retire behind the city walls (assuming of course that this is feasible)?
Yes because we are at step 4 at this stage(7.3.8.4), before step 7(7.3.8.7)
when we are preparing for battle, and at THAT stage the defender has the option
"withdraw behind walls"
What happens if a Prussian corps sieges Namur (garrisoned both by french and
Spanish forces) ? What is the forage value that France will roll in Namur
(currently there are 5 Spanish factors and 1 French) in a city with 3 spires.
See 10.3.3 Spanish forces immediately surrender and may be redeployed during
next reinforcement. French garrison forages and fights alone.
Can Prussian corps block supply leading to Spanish forces if they are
originated from French depots?
Don't remember a specific rule on it, but it makes sense that Prussia blocks
supply since wagons are French and cannot move over hostile corps for whatever
reason.
if anyone has a different understanding on any of the above please say so.
M.
On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 6:09 PM Yannis Sykamias
<ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ysykamias@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Apologies for the prolonged delay of this turn but day to day issues as well as
synchronization of communication among 4 people are not always combining...
Some questions to the group in order to clarify in advance some issues:
All issues occur in the case Spain or Prussia (respectively) are engaged in
battle with other nations' armies present in the area.
Assuming Prussia enters a location where France and Spain both have armies. Is
the Spanish army requested to immediately leave the battlefield (or declare war
if feasible) or it has the option to remain in the area and retire behind the
city walls (if this is feasible).
The opposite scenario, Spain enters an area where Prussian and British forces
are located. Do the Prussians need to leave the area if the British decide to
retire behind the city walls (assuming of course that this is feasible)?
What happens if a Prussian corps sieges Namur (garrisoned both by french and
Spanish forces) ? What is the forage value that France will roll in Namur
(currently there are 5 Spanish factors and 1 French) in a city with 3 spires.
Can Prussian corps block supply leading to Spanish forces if they are
originated from French depots?
Thank you!
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