Can we go back to arguing about whether or not illustration is related to
comics? ;-D
On Jan 18, 2021, at 11:34 AM, Malcolm Bourne (Redacted sender "m.j.bourne"
for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, what I don’t know enough about is the relative levels of
power/superiority all these people have in deciding these things. I like
Nolan’s batman films a lot, for example, but don’t know how much influence /
power he had over Man of Steel. Similarly, who had the ultimate say in WW84 -
Patty J or Geoff J? Much has been written, maligningly (is that even a
word??) and maybe accurately about Geoff of late but I have no contacts
there, no axes to grind, no way to know what is true.
I agree that the elements of WW 84 and indeed the first WW were very much
done in classic DC stories. BUT - well two ‘BUTS’ - firstly what works in a
comic does not necessarily work on the screen = there is a different
sensibility of storytelling to enable to view to ’suspend disbelief’ ; and
secondly, especially clear on second viewing to me, WW84 was a series of nice
set-piece scenes and acts, but not very well joined together or ‘overviewed’.
The first WW joined together very well, but didn’t manage the ‘landing’ - the
ending - well. IMHO
So the point about experiencing the fun is exactly right but poor
editing/story pacing jerks you out of the rhythm of the film.
Malcolm
On 18 Jan 2021, at 04:06, Ken Penders (Redacted sender "kenpenders" for
DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
wrote:
Malcolm,
While I’d agree the 1st Wonder Woman film was better than the 2nd, I’d argue
the flaws of the 2nd are - much like the flaws of the 2nd Donner SUPERMAN
film - more a result of circumstances beyond the Director’s control.
The biggest problem with the Snyder-verse wasn’t that it attempted way too
much too soon - which it did - but that Zack Snyder doesn’t accept the
concept of a character like Superman being a positive role model. Just to
have Jonathan Kent respond “Maybe” when Clark asks if he shouldn’t have
saved his classmates clearly tells you Snyder is not the guy to be in charge
of the franchise. That Christopher Nolan didn’t have the common sense to
overrule Snyder’s decision to have Superman kill Zod shows he doesn’t
understand the character and his place in American mythology either.
I didn’t see one thing depicted in WW84 that hasn’t happened in some of the
most classic DC stories over the past 8 decades. It was a comic book film
true to its roots, and that’s all I hope for when I see the latest film. I
want the fun I experienced from reading the 4-color adventures I read as a
kid captured on the big screen, and that’s what I got.
Ken Penders
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 17, 2021, at 7:00 PM, Malcolm Bourne <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Having now watched the movie again, actually I’d agree it was a better
experience on a second viewing ! The two Donner movies, which I first
watched as a teen, to me set a very high bar; this was a sort of attempt to
capture that zeitgeist maybe. Like with Reeve, this is the role that has
defined Gal Gadot and she is perfect in it. But I still think the first
movie was better and in fact, apart from the stupid Ares CGI, was the best
of the DCEU movies so far.
Patty J has proven herself a very good director which leaves me to wonder
if John’s’ input was the problem. But again I have no way of knowing.
(I think overall though it’s still true that the DC movies have failed
miserably to match the MCU - circumstances force them to abandon the
Snyder-verse connectedness and then they had to pretend it was all part of
the plan to have so many different fictional film/tv universes. Whereas the
continuity aspect of the MCU - like Stan Lee’s comics - has worked
perfectly for comics fans and, it has turned out, millions of new fans
attracted to the movies.)
Just my humble opinions......
Malcolm
Sent from a galaxy far far away
On 17 Jan 2021, at 21:09, WASIELEWSKI <fedres@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:fedres@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I don't think WW84 is a worthy successor either. The first WW movie was
great, even with a weak third act. This one evoked the era nicely yes and
the creators hearts were in the right place I guess, but the movie was
weak on many levels. And it didn't need to be so. Changes to WWs powers to
shoehorn in a great classic WW prop came and went in the blink of an eye
and for no reason other than to be there once (and not again in battle)?
And we haven't really addressed the weird guy (again oddly unnecessary and
somewhat tone deaf to the times). My older daughter cried as we left the
first WW and my wife was close to tears at the wonderful portrayal of a
powerful woman protagonist, WW84 was generally given the "it was good but"
review.
Both WW and the Donner Superman have 2 huge strengths, the star is perfect
casting in the costume and in bearing and the producers wanted to do the
work justice. I think too much of WW84s flaws are overlooked due to those
2 factors remaining but not nearly as on point as they were the first time
around.
I hope we see Cheetah again. In a movie with Gal Gadot as WW, how does
Kristen Wiig steal the show?
On January 17, 2021 at 3:52 PM Ken Penders <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Michael,
According to Elliot, he spent a couple of days smoking cigars with Mario
Puzo explaining Superman to him as Mario really hadn’t a clue of the
material he was dealing with. Elliot actually read Mario’s script prior
to it being rewritten by the Newmans, which did feature Superman dealing
with the nuclear missiles Luthor launched, but lacked the time travel
element which the Newmans later added. Elliot was asked to write a novel
- eventually released as LAST SON OF KRYPTON - that was to be released
between the 1st 2 Superman films for marketing purposes, as Mario
contractually had to be offered the novelizations of the 1st 2 films. As
he never got around to either adaptation, the publication schedule of
Elliot’s novel was moved up, with the publishers using the cover art that
had been prepared for Mario’s novelization. (As a side note: Elliot was
offered the job of adapting the script of SUPERMAN III as a novel but
turned it down as he didn’t like the story, preferring instead to work on
his own material.)
Personally, I think you’re looking at WW84 from the wrong perspective, as
the Donner SUPERMAN films will always rank high with both Elliot &
myself. Both of us look at WW84 as a successful invocation of an era long
ago done with love and respect. The creators hearts were definitely in
the right place. Donner’s SUPERMAN also has the benefit of 40+ years of
setting the standard for everything to come after. WW84 is a worthy
successor in many ways that many films which came after haven’t been. You
can’t say that MAN OF STEEL or BATMAN V SUPERMAN are anywhere near worthy
successors of the Donner films.
Ken Penders
On Jan 17, 2021, at 6:34 AM, Michael Lustig <michael.lustig@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:michael.lustig@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
WW84 certainly wasn't the worst superhero movie, but it *cannot* be
properly compared to 1978's Superman! Without getting into the details
of superior cinematography (Unsworth), script (lots of tinkering),
director (Donner), and stars (Brando!, Hackman!, etc.), the mere fact
that the points where the plot/origin presented in Superman deviated
from the previous canon - and then ultimately became the new canon -
speaks to the deep influence of the movie on the comics. It essentially
reversed the 'natural' creative direction! From a pure-movie
standpoint, Superman & WW84 are so not-in-the-same-league, such that
it's somewhat embarrassing to even be having this discussion. With all
due respect to Elliot S! Maggin, I must disagree with his comparison.
I watched the movie on its first day of release on HBO Max, but I'm
definitely *not* rushing to see it again. It's worth a first viewing if
you can see it for 'free', but having seen it already I would now tell
my three-weeks-ago self that there's no reason to make any special
effort to see it.
-Michael
On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 2:22 AM Andy Mangels
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
wrote:
I also found it better on the second viewing, allowing my expectations
to calm down, and to realize that some of my complaints HAD been
addressed by small bits of dialogue that had sailed by on the first
viewing.
It's not the first film, but neither does it deserve some of the
critical bricks thrown at it.
Best,
Andy Mangels
AMangelsSW@xxxxxxx <mailto:AMangelsSW@xxxxxxx>
www.andymangels.com <http://www.andymangels.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: Kin Wong <skizzoid@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:skizzoid@xxxxxxxxx>>
To: comicartl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:comicartl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sat, Jan 16, 2021 5:13 pm
Subject: [comicart-l] Re: WW1984
I recognize that there are (several) flaws with the movie, but I still
really enjoyed it in spite of them. It didn't meet my high expectations
going in, but a second viewing helped me appreciate it for what it wants
to be/say. The comparison to the Donner Superman movies is apt.
On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 5:49 PM Malcolm Bourne
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
wrote:
So who has seen WW1984? We watched it this evening on TV, it’s on a
“rent for 48 hours” basis in the UK just now. Anyone got any opinions?
Malcolm
Sent from a galaxy far far away
