Malcolm,
While I’d agree the 1st Wonder Woman film was better than the 2nd, I’d argue
the flaws of the 2nd are - much like the flaws of the 2nd Donner SUPERMAN film
- more a result of circumstances beyond the Director’s control.
The biggest problem with the Snyder-verse wasn’t that it attempted way too much
too soon - which it did - but that Zack Snyder doesn’t accept the concept of a
character like Superman being a positive role model. Just to have Jonathan Kent
respond “Maybe” when Clark asks if he shouldn’t have saved his classmates
clearly tells you Snyder is not the guy to be in charge of the franchise. That
Christopher Nolan didn’t have the common sense to overrule Snyder’s decision to
have Superman kill Zod shows he doesn’t understand the character and his place
in American mythology either.
I didn’t see one thing depicted in WW84 that hasn’t happened in some of the
most classic DC stories over the past 8 decades. It was a comic book film true
to its roots, and that’s all I hope for when I see the latest film. I want the
fun I experienced from reading the 4-color adventures I read as a kid captured
on the big screen, and that’s what I got.
Ken Penders
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 17, 2021, at 7:00 PM, Malcolm Bourne <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Having now watched the movie again, actually I’d agree it was a better
experience on a second viewing ! The two Donner movies, which I first watched
as a teen, to me set a very high bar; this was a sort of attempt to capture
that zeitgeist maybe. Like with Reeve, this is the role that has defined Gal
Gadot and she is perfect in it. But I still think the first movie was better
and in fact, apart from the stupid Ares CGI, was the best of the DCEU movies
so far.
Patty J has proven herself a very good director which leaves me to wonder if
John’s’ input was the problem. But again I have no way of knowing.
(I think overall though it’s still true that the DC movies have failed
miserably to match the MCU - circumstances force them to abandon the
Snyder-verse connectedness and then they had to pretend it was all part of
the plan to have so many different fictional film/tv universes. Whereas the
continuity aspect of the MCU - like Stan Lee’s comics - has worked perfectly
for comics fans and, it has turned out, millions of new fans attracted to the
movies.)
Just my humble opinions......
Malcolm
Sent from a galaxy far far away
On 17 Jan 2021, at 21:09, WASIELEWSKI <fedres@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: I don't think WW84 is a worthy successor either. The first WW movie was
great, even with a weak third act. This one evoked the era nicely yes and
the creators hearts were in the right place I guess, but the movie was weak
on many levels. And it didn't need to be so. Changes to WWs powers to
shoehorn in a great classic WW prop came and went in the blink of an eye and
for no reason other than to be there once (and not again in battle)? And we
haven't really addressed the weird guy (again oddly unnecessary and somewhat
tone deaf to the times). My older daughter cried as we left the first WW and
my wife was close to tears at the wonderful portrayal of a powerful woman
protagonist, WW84 was generally given the "it was good but" review.
Both WW and the Donner Superman have 2 huge strengths, the star is perfect
casting in the costume and in bearing and the producers wanted to do the
work justice. I think too much of WW84s flaws are overlooked due to those 2
factors remaining but not nearly as on point as they were the first time
around.
I hope we see Cheetah again. In a movie with Gal Gadot as WW, how does
Kristen Wiig steal the show?
On January 17, 2021 at 3:52 PM Ken Penders <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Michael,
According to Elliot, he spent a couple of days smoking cigars with Mario
Puzo explaining Superman to him as Mario really hadn’t a clue of the
material he was dealing with. Elliot actually read Mario’s script prior to
it being rewritten by the Newmans, which did feature Superman dealing with
the nuclear missiles Luthor launched, but lacked the time travel element
which the Newmans later added. Elliot was asked to write a novel -
eventually released as LAST SON OF KRYPTON - that was to be released
between the 1st 2 Superman films for marketing purposes, as Mario
contractually had to be offered the novelizations of the 1st 2 films. As he
never got around to either adaptation, the publication schedule of Elliot’s
novel was moved up, with the publishers using the cover art that had been
prepared for Mario’s novelization. (As a side note: Elliot was offered the
job of adapting the script of SUPERMAN III as a novel but turned it down as
he didn’t like the story, preferring instead to work on his own material.)
Personally, I think you’re looking at WW84 from the wrong perspective, as
the Donner SUPERMAN films will always rank high with both Elliot & myself.
Both of us look at WW84 as a successful invocation of an era long ago done
with love and respect. The creators hearts were definitely in the right
place. Donner’s SUPERMAN also has the benefit of 40+ years of setting the
standard for everything to come after. WW84 is a worthy successor in many
ways that many films which came after haven’t been. You can’t say that MAN
OF STEEL or BATMAN V SUPERMAN are anywhere near worthy successors of the
Donner films.
Ken Penders
On Jan 17, 2021, at 6:34 AM, Michael Lustig <michael.lustig@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
WW84 certainly wasn't the worst superhero movie, but it *cannot* be
properly compared to 1978's Superman! Without getting into the details of
superior cinematography (Unsworth), script (lots of tinkering), director
(Donner), and stars (Brando!, Hackman!, etc.), the mere fact that the
points where the plot/origin presented in Superman deviated from the
previous canon - and then ultimately became the new canon - speaks to the
deep influence of the movie on the comics. It essentially reversed the
'natural' creative direction! From a pure-movie standpoint, Superman &
WW84 are so not-in-the-same-league, such that it's somewhat embarrassing
to even be having this discussion. With all due respect to Elliot S!
Maggin, I must disagree with his comparison.
I watched the movie on its first day of release on HBO Max, but I'm
definitely *not* rushing to see it again. It's worth a first viewing if
you can see it for 'free', but having seen it already I would now tell my
three-weeks-ago self that there's no reason to make any special effort to
see it.
-Michael
On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 2:22 AM Andy Mangels
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I also found it better on the second viewing, allowing my expectations to
calm down, and to realize that some of my complaints HAD been addressed
by small bits of dialogue that had sailed by on the first viewing.
It's not the first film, but neither does it deserve some of the critical
bricks thrown at it.
Best,
Andy Mangels
AMangelsSW@xxxxxxx
www.andymangels.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Kin Wong <skizzoid@xxxxxxxxx>
To: comicartl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sat, Jan 16, 2021 5:13 pm
Subject: [comicart-l] Re: WW1984
I recognize that there are (several) flaws with the movie, but I still
really enjoyed it in spite of them. It didn't meet my high expectations
going in, but a second viewing helped me appreciate it for what it wants
to be/say. The comparison to the Donner Superman movies is apt.
On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 5:49 PM Malcolm Bourne
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
So who has seen WW1984? We watched it this evening on TV, it’s on a “rent
for 48 hours” basis in the UK just now. Anyone got any opinions?
Malcolm
Sent from a galaxy far far away
