The general idea is that the views will call methods in DocumentBase to request information from the document or to pass information to it. For example, if the transcriber creates a new block of text the view will use a method that passes that block and an indication of whether it is a header, paragraph, transcriber's note, etc. Such an indication is what I mean by a style. Just what methods DocumentBase will provide depends on what the views need. If the transcriber choses to emphasize a black of text the view will use a method that passes that block and an indication of what emphasis is intended, such as bold or italic. John On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 01:19:39PM +0000, Keith Creasy wrote: > I'm not asking about interleaving, what are your plans to communicate between > the views and the document in Semantics? How do they update each other? We > haven't solved that, or at least I haven't seen the solution. We really can't > move forward until it's solved. If Semantics hands off nice, pretty text and > braille that's fine but what happens when someone edits something? > > Text Styles really aren't a problem. The TextView can show the text styles > but the lines match the braille lines. The text in XML doesn't have hard line > breaks except for block text boundries. Block text, as far as I know, in > braill and text matches; i.e. paragraphs, headings, list items, etc. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J. Boyer > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 7:50 AM > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views > > These are just my thoughts on interleaving. It just seems like a possibility. > > John > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 12:29:00PM +0000, Keith Creasy wrote: > > Ah, and just what do you have in mind for that? I proposed a model for > > doing it but since you've nixed my architecture I'm interested in what you > > have in mind. If we don't have a plan for this we need to stop and come up > > with one. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J. > > Boyer > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 7:08 PM > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views > > > > Yes, the biggest problem is updating the document from the views. > > > > Interleaving print and Braille displays might not be too difficult using > > FormLayout. The two StyledText controls would be assigned the same screen > > area, except that the print one would be a little higher, so that its lines > > would appear between those of the Braille one. Line spacing would have to > > be appropriate. One of the controls would have to have a transparent > > background. I don'tknow if SWT can do this. > > > > John B > > > > On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 07:20:55PM +0000, Keith Creasy wrote: > > > Well, I expect we'll just get everything working with the synchronization > > > in place and go from there. > > > > > > The biggest hurdle in my opinion at this point is the mechanism for > > > updates from the view to the document, in the XML context, and > > > vice-versa. If we can get that worked out everything else seems pretty > > > easy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith Creasy > > > Software Developer > > > American Printing House for the Blind KCreasy@xxxxxxx > > > Phone: 502.895.2405 > > > Skype: keith537 > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John > > > Gardner > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 2:16 PM > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views > > > > > > Sounds pretty user-friendly! However, a number of possibilities will > > > work, so I suggest you propose the spec for this based on what can be > > > made to work at reasonable effort. I hesitate to write down a spec and > > > then discover that something that works just as well would be fifty times > > > easier to implement. > > > > > > John G > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith > > > Creasy > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 11:12 > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views > > > > > > Just some ideas... > > > > > > Maybe we can make it so you can turn the line-by-line synchronization on > > > and off. > > > > > > Also, since you hopefully can close or hide any of the views, if you > > > aren't showing the braille view then there's really not much point in > > > trying to synchronize. So, if you're just working on composing text in a > > > large document you could just hide the braille view, maximize the text > > > view and write in something that is more like a word processor. Then, > > > when you want to see the braille, you could show the braille view and the > > > synchronization would become active. > > > > > > > > > Keith Creasy > > > Software Developer > > > American Printing House for the Blind KCreasy@xxxxxxx > > > Phone: 502.895.2405 > > > Skype: keith537 > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John > > > Gardner > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 2:03 PM > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views > > > > > > Hi Keith, it would be a bit annoying to me, because the formatting would > > > make the lines really short. But this is a minor annoyance, not anything > > > that should change the direction you are going. > > > > > > John G > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith > > > Creasy > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 10:56 > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views > > > > > > John. > > > > > > Explain why it might be a bit annoying? Sounds like something I need to > > > hear. > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith Creasy > > > Software Developer > > > American Printing House for the Blind KCreasy@xxxxxxx > > > Phone: 502.895.2405 > > > Skype: keith537 > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John > > > Gardner > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 1:18 PM > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views > > > > > > Interesting, this is getting closer and closer to where conversations on > > > BrailleBlaster started. If BrailleBlaster is being used to translate and > > > make small corrections to an existing document, this functionality should > > > be just fine. If one is authoring a long document in BrailleBlaster, it > > > could be a bit annoying. > > > > > > We didn't expect BrailleBlaster to be a full-featured authoring > > > application, so personally I think the functionality you describe is just > > > fine. > > > > > > John G > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith > > > Creasy > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 10:09 > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views > > > > > > See my comments, KC-, below. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J. > > > Boyer > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 12:36 PM > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views > > > > > > How will the browser view get the information to show things in their > > > original context? > > > > > > KC- That's a good question and one we need to solve. Basically it > > > contains the original document (DOM) with a CSS and XSLT applied. There > > > is an update method to move the browser selection to the context element. > > > > > > > > > I've always thought that print editing would be done in a wordprocessor > > > view. The layout would not mimic that of the Braille view. I just want to > > > be clear on where we will be doing editing. > > > > > > > > > KC- The short answer is, at least in this first cycle, editing is done in > > > the text view. Right now there is no "word processor" view. I think in > > > the long term we are going to want a browser-style view that is editable. > > > We can talk about whether or not we want some kind of text view that does > > > not place line breaks at the same places as those in the braille view. If > > > we design it right then adding views is easy. I suggest we start with the > > > text and braille views in line-by-line synchronization. In XML documents > > > line length is based on the view window anyhow so there are no hard line > > > breaks in the print to conflict with the ones in the braille view. > > > . > > > > > > > > > John B > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 05:27:01PM +0000, Keith Creasy wrote: > > > > John. > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a Browser view. Sorry for the confusion. It's just to > > > > allow > > > users to see everything in its oribinal context. > > > > > > > > View Plus has just mentioned a time or two that they'd like to > > > > overlap > > > text and braille. Beyond that there isn't much more to say. I'd just like > > > to keep things open to do that if they want to at some point. For now the > > > text and braille views accomplish the same thing just in side-by-side > > > views rather than them being overlapped. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J. > > > > Boyer > > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 12:23 PM > > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views > > > > > > > > Hi Keith, > > > > > > > > There are a lot of things in your original reply that I will be > > > > thinking > > > about. I agree that it might be best to srart over with Documentmanager > > > (or DocumentClient). > > > > > > > > What is ViewPlus doing about editing print and Braille? If this is > > > proprietary information we might discuss it in the steering committee? > > > > > > > > I can understand a tree view, but why do we need an html view? > > > > Isn't it > > > more properly a browser view? > > > > > > > > John B > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 05:04:29PM +0000, Keith Creasy wrote: > > > > > Hmmm, that would be an interesting approach, make one of the > > > > > views > > > transparent so the content could overlap in a clever way. It might work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith Creasy > > > > > Software Developer > > > > > American Printing House for the Blind KCreasy@xxxxxxx > > > > > Phone: 502.895.2405 > > > > > Skype: keith537 > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John > > > > > Gardner > > > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 12:01 PM > > > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views > > > > > > > > > > Hi Keith, John B mentioned a text+Braille view. This is > > > > > something that > > > was discussed in the early planning stages of BrailleBlaster. But we > > > dropped it in favor of separate views. It would be nifty if the text > > > view and the Braille view could be superposed to show a "text+Braille" > > > view - ie the translation right above the Braille, something our users > > > like. For ViewPlus printer/embossers it would also be more or less what > > > the final output is. > > > > > As long as you are working on views, is it difficult to design > > > > > them so > > > that this is possible? Ie to make the top view semi-transparaent and > > > easy to drag on top of the other? > > > > > > > > > > John G > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith > > > > > Creasy > > > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 08:20 > > > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views > > > > > > > > > > Hi John. > > > > > > > > > > Interesting. I'm working on views today. At least I'm reading > > > > > through > > > the code and coming up with some strategies. > > > > > > > > > > I do like the idea of moving views to a package. Initially we > > > > > have > > > potentially four views: > > > > > > > > > > TextView > > > > > BrailleView > > > > > TreeView > > > > > HtmlView > > > > > > > > > > I still want to attach the views to the document (DocumentBase) > > > > > in some > > > way with a common interface so that new views can be added easily. That > > > way we can document exactly what someone would need to create a > > > text/braille view. > > > > > We don't plan to do that but View Plus may. > > > > > > > > > > Optionally we can attach DocumentManager to DocumentBase and let > > > DocumentManager manage connecting views. Document Manager also handles a > > > client view that represents the window area for a single document. > > > WpManager is going to create each of DocumentManager and hand off the > > > client area that DocumentManager and it's view widgets occupy. If we want > > > to enable an MDI then WmManager just changes wich instance of > > > DocumentManager is displayed in the client area. > > > > > > > > > > Also, because it's such a mess, I'd suggest that someone rename > > > > > the > > > current DcocumentManager class DocumentManagerOld or something and start > > > over. > > > > > There's a lot in there that can be copied and used in the new > > > DocumentManager but in trying to comb through it and decide what should > > > stay and what should go I think starting over with the original as a > > > reference is simpler. In fact, what about renaming it DocumentClient? It > > > is mostly a view of sorts. > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes so far, they are not complete: > > > > > > > > > > WpManager class: > > > > > > > > > > This is the main entry point for BB. It doesn't do much right > > > > > now but > > > I'm proposing that it do a bit more. > > > > > > > > > > 1. Sets up main application window, menu, toolbar, andclient area. > > > > > 2. Handles File/New and File/Recent command, most Window commands. > > > > > 3. Creates a DocumentManager instance when a new document is created. > > > > > > > > > > DocumentManager class (maybe renamed to DocumentClient?): > > > > > > > > > > 1. fills the client area of WpManager. The client frame contains > > > > > any > > > views to the document. > > > > > 2. Creates an instance of DocumentBase and any views that need > > > > > to be > > > attached. > > > > > 3. Handles most file commands; i.e. Open, Save, Save As,Export, > > > > > Import, > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Views: > > > > > > > > > > All views are derived from AbstractView. This is so that all can > > > > > have > > > certain methods that are required for interfacing with the document and > > > so that the document can update them when necessary. Does it make sense > > > for each view to create it's own font? We definitely want to avoid code > > > in DocumentManager that is specific to a particular view; i.e. > > > DocumentManager knows how to create a BrailleView and put it somewhere > > > but nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > Keith Creasy > > > > > Software Developer > > > > > American Printing House for the Blind KCreasy@xxxxxxx > > > > > Phone: 502.895.2405 > > > > > Skype: keith537 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J. > > > > > Boyer > > > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 10:42 AM > > > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Thoughts and questions on views > > > > > > > > > > First, whatever APH and ViewaPlus want to do about view is fine with > > > > > me. > > > > > > > > > > It seems that we are considering four views, a tree view, a > > > > > browser or > > > htmml view a combined Braille-and-print view and a word processor view. > > > > > Do we want the last view? Editing can be done in the > > > > > braille-and-print > > > view. > > > > > If we don't want a wordprocessor view we con't have to worry > > > > > about > > > styles, because the layout of the print in the print-Braille view will > > > mimic that of the Braille. Perhaps we should change the architecture to > > > have an org.brailleblaster.views package and within this package > > > subpackages for each view, brailleprintview, treeview, browserview and > > > wordprocessorview. > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer Abilitiessoft, Inc. > > > > > http://www.abilitiessoft.com > > > > > Madison, Wisconsin USA > > > > > Developing software for people with disabilities > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer Abilitiessoft, Inc. > > > > http://www.abilitiessoft.com > > > > Madison, Wisconsin USA > > > > Developing software for people with disabilities > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > John J. Boyer, Executive Director > > > GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc. > > > http://www.godtouches.org > > > Madison, Wisconsin, USA > > > Peace, Love, Service > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer Abilitiessoft, Inc. > > http://www.abilitiessoft.com > > Madison, Wisconsin USA > > Developing software for people with disabilities > > > > > > -- > John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer Abilitiessoft, Inc. > http://www.abilitiessoft.com > Madison, Wisconsin USA > Developing software for people with disabilities > > -- John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer Abilitiessoft, Inc. http://www.abilitiessoft.com Madison, Wisconsin USA Developing software for people with disabilities