[brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views
- From: "John J. Boyer" <john.boyer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:50:01 -0600
These are just my thoughts on interleaving. It just seems like a
possibility.
John
On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 12:29:00PM +0000, Keith Creasy wrote:
> Ah, and just what do you have in mind for that? I proposed a model for doing
> it but since you've nixed my architecture I'm interested in what you have in
> mind. If we don't have a plan for this we need to stop and come up with one.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J. Boyer
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 7:08 PM
> To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views
>
> Yes, the biggest problem is updating the document from the views.
>
> Interleaving print and Braille displays might not be too difficult using
> FormLayout. The two StyledText controls would be assigned the same screen
> area, except that the print one would be a little higher, so that its lines
> would appear between those of the Braille one. Line spacing would have to be
> appropriate. One of the controls would have to have a transparent background.
> I don'tknow if SWT can do this.
>
> John B
>
> On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 07:20:55PM +0000, Keith Creasy wrote:
> > Well, I expect we'll just get everything working with the synchronization
> > in place and go from there.
> >
> > The biggest hurdle in my opinion at this point is the mechanism for updates
> > from the view to the document, in the XML context, and vice-versa. If we
> > can get that worked out everything else seems pretty easy.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Keith Creasy
> > Software Developer
> > American Printing House for the Blind
> > KCreasy@xxxxxxx
> > Phone: 502.895.2405
> > Skype: keith537
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Gardner
> > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 2:16 PM
> > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views
> >
> > Sounds pretty user-friendly! However, a number of possibilities will work,
> > so I suggest you propose the spec for this based on what can be made to
> > work at reasonable effort. I hesitate to write down a spec and then
> > discover that something that works just as well would be fifty times easier
> > to implement.
> >
> > John G
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith Creasy
> > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 11:12
> > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views
> >
> > Just some ideas...
> >
> > Maybe we can make it so you can turn the line-by-line synchronization on
> > and off.
> >
> > Also, since you hopefully can close or hide any of the views, if you aren't
> > showing the braille view then there's really not much point in trying to
> > synchronize. So, if you're just working on composing text in a large
> > document you could just hide the braille view, maximize the text view and
> > write in something that is more like a word processor. Then, when you want
> > to see the braille, you could show the braille view and the synchronization
> > would become active.
> >
> >
> > Keith Creasy
> > Software Developer
> > American Printing House for the Blind
> > KCreasy@xxxxxxx
> > Phone: 502.895.2405
> > Skype: keith537
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Gardner
> > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 2:03 PM
> > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views
> >
> > Hi Keith, it would be a bit annoying to me, because the formatting would
> > make the lines really short. But this is a minor annoyance, not anything
> > that should change the direction you are going.
> >
> > John G
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith Creasy
> > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 10:56
> > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views
> >
> > John.
> >
> > Explain why it might be a bit annoying? Sounds like something I need to
> > hear.
> >
> >
> >
> > Keith Creasy
> > Software Developer
> > American Printing House for the Blind
> > KCreasy@xxxxxxx
> > Phone: 502.895.2405
> > Skype: keith537
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Gardner
> > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 1:18 PM
> > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views
> >
> > Interesting, this is getting closer and closer to where conversations on
> > BrailleBlaster started. If BrailleBlaster is being used to translate and
> > make small corrections to an existing document, this functionality should
> > be just fine. If one is authoring a long document in BrailleBlaster, it
> > could be a bit annoying.
> >
> > We didn't expect BrailleBlaster to be a full-featured authoring
> > application, so personally I think the functionality you describe is just
> > fine.
> >
> > John G
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith Creasy
> > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 10:09
> > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views
> >
> > See my comments, KC-, below.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J.
> > Boyer
> > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 12:36 PM
> > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views
> >
> > How will the browser view get the information to show things in their
> > original context?
> >
> > KC- That's a good question and one we need to solve. Basically it contains
> > the original document (DOM) with a CSS and XSLT applied. There is an update
> > method to move the browser selection to the context element.
> >
> >
> > I've always thought that print editing would be done in a wordprocessor
> > view. The layout would not mimic that of the Braille view. I just want to
> > be clear on where we will be doing editing.
> >
> >
> > KC- The short answer is, at least in this first cycle, editing is done in
> > the text view. Right now there is no "word processor" view. I think in the
> > long term we are going to want a browser-style view that is editable. We
> > can talk about whether or not we want some kind of text view that does not
> > place line breaks at the same places as those in the braille view. If we
> > design it right then adding views is easy. I suggest we start with the text
> > and braille views in line-by-line synchronization. In XML documents line
> > length is based on the view window anyhow so there are no hard line breaks
> > in the print to conflict with the ones in the braille view.
> > .
> >
> >
> > John B
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 05:27:01PM +0000, Keith Creasy wrote:
> > > John.
> > >
> > > Yes, it is a Browser view. Sorry for the confusion. It's just to
> > > allow
> > users to see everything in its oribinal context.
> > >
> > > View Plus has just mentioned a time or two that they'd like to
> > > overlap
> > text and braille. Beyond that there isn't much more to say. I'd just like
> > to keep things open to do that if they want to at some point. For now the
> > text and braille views accomplish the same thing just in side-by-side views
> > rather than them being overlapped.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J.
> > > Boyer
> > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views
> > >
> > > Hi Keith,
> > >
> > > There are a lot of things in your original reply that I will be
> > > thinking
> > about. I agree that it might be best to srart over with Documentmanager (or
> > DocumentClient).
> > >
> > > What is ViewPlus doing about editing print and Braille? If this is
> > proprietary information we might discuss it in the steering committee?
> > >
> > > I can understand a tree view, but why do we need an html view? Isn't
> > > it
> > more properly a browser view?
> > >
> > > John B
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 05:04:29PM +0000, Keith Creasy wrote:
> > > > Hmmm, that would be an interesting approach, make one of the views
> > transparent so the content could overlap in a clever way. It might work.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Keith Creasy
> > > > Software Developer
> > > > American Printing House for the Blind KCreasy@xxxxxxx
> > > > Phone: 502.895.2405
> > > > Skype: keith537
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John
> > > > Gardner
> > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 12:01 PM
> > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views
> > > >
> > > > Hi Keith, John B mentioned a text+Braille view. This is something
> > > > that
> > was discussed in the early planning stages of BrailleBlaster. But we
> > dropped it in favor of separate views. It would be nifty if the text view
> > and the Braille view could be superposed to show a "text+Braille" view - ie
> > the translation right above the Braille, something our users like. For
> > ViewPlus printer/embossers it would also be more or less what the final
> > output is.
> > > > As long as you are working on views, is it difficult to design
> > > > them so
> > that this is possible? Ie to make the top view semi-transparaent and easy
> > to drag on top of the other?
> > > >
> > > > John G
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith
> > > > Creasy
> > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 08:20
> > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts and questions on views
> > > >
> > > > Hi John.
> > > >
> > > > Interesting. I'm working on views today. At least I'm reading
> > > > through
> > the code and coming up with some strategies.
> > > >
> > > > I do like the idea of moving views to a package. Initially we have
> > potentially four views:
> > > >
> > > > TextView
> > > > BrailleView
> > > > TreeView
> > > > HtmlView
> > > >
> > > > I still want to attach the views to the document (DocumentBase) in
> > > > some
> > way with a common interface so that new views can be added easily. That way
> > we can document exactly what someone would need to create a text/braille
> > view.
> > > > We don't plan to do that but View Plus may.
> > > >
> > > > Optionally we can attach DocumentManager to DocumentBase and let
> > DocumentManager manage connecting views. Document Manager also handles a
> > client view that represents the window area for a single document.
> > WpManager is going to create each of DocumentManager and hand off the
> > client area that DocumentManager and it's view widgets occupy. If we want
> > to enable an MDI then WmManager just changes wich instance of
> > DocumentManager is displayed in the client area.
> > > >
> > > > Also, because it's such a mess, I'd suggest that someone rename
> > > > the
> > current DcocumentManager class DocumentManagerOld or something and start
> > over.
> > > > There's a lot in there that can be copied and used in the new
> > DocumentManager but in trying to comb through it and decide what should
> > stay and what should go I think starting over with the original as a
> > reference is simpler. In fact, what about renaming it DocumentClient? It is
> > mostly a view of sorts.
> > > >
> > > > Here are my notes so far, they are not complete:
> > > >
> > > > WpManager class:
> > > >
> > > > This is the main entry point for BB. It doesn't do much right now
> > > > but
> > I'm proposing that it do a bit more.
> > > >
> > > > 1. Sets up main application window, menu, toolbar, andclient area.
> > > > 2. Handles File/New and File/Recent command, most Window commands.
> > > > 3. Creates a DocumentManager instance when a new document is created.
> > > >
> > > > DocumentManager class (maybe renamed to DocumentClient?):
> > > >
> > > > 1. fills the client area of WpManager. The client frame contains
> > > > any
> > views to the document.
> > > > 2. Creates an instance of DocumentBase and any views that need to
> > > > be
> > attached.
> > > > 3. Handles most file commands; i.e. Open, Save, Save As,Export,
> > > > Import,
> > etc.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Views:
> > > >
> > > > All views are derived from AbstractView. This is so that all can
> > > > have
> > certain methods that are required for interfacing with the document and so
> > that the document can update them when necessary. Does it make sense for
> > each view to create it's own font? We definitely want to avoid code in
> > DocumentManager that is specific to a particular view; i.e. DocumentManager
> > knows how to create a BrailleView and put it somewhere but nothing more.
> > > >
> > > > Keith Creasy
> > > > Software Developer
> > > > American Printing House for the Blind KCreasy@xxxxxxx
> > > > Phone: 502.895.2405
> > > > Skype: keith537
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J.
> > > > Boyer
> > > > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 10:42 AM
> > > > To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: [brailleblaster] Thoughts and questions on views
> > > >
> > > > First, whatever APH and ViewaPlus want to do about view is fine with me.
> > > >
> > > > It seems that we are considering four views, a tree view, a
> > > > browser or
> > htmml view a combined Braille-and-print view and a word processor view.
> > > > Do we want the last view? Editing can be done in the
> > > > braille-and-print
> > view.
> > > > If we don't want a wordprocessor view we con't have to worry about
> > styles, because the layout of the print in the print-Braille view will
> > mimic that of the Braille. Perhaps we should change the architecture to
> > have an org.brailleblaster.views package and within this package
> > subpackages for each view, brailleprintview, treeview, browserview and
> > wordprocessorview.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer Abilitiessoft, Inc.
> > > > http://www.abilitiessoft.com
> > > > Madison, Wisconsin USA
> > > > Developing software for people with disabilities
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer Abilitiessoft, Inc.
> > > http://www.abilitiessoft.com
> > > Madison, Wisconsin USA
> > > Developing software for people with disabilities
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > John J. Boyer, Executive Director
> > GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
> > http://www.godtouches.org
> > Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> > Peace, Love, Service
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer Abilitiessoft, Inc.
> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
> Madison, Wisconsin USA
> Developing software for people with disabilities
>
>
--
John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer
Abilitiessoft, Inc.
http://www.abilitiessoft.com
Madison, Wisconsin USA
Developing software for people with disabilities
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