[brailleblaster] Re: Editor
- From: Keith Creasy <kcreasy@xxxxxxx>
- To: "brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 20:16:50 +0000
I'm not sure. I invision only two views. One for braille and one for XML/HTML
rendering of the text from the XML file. They should both dynamically update as
changes are made. Why would we need a third view for the text from the braille
view?
Keith
From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Gardner
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 4:09 PM
To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Editor
Keith, okay I'm confused again. What is your second view? Seems to me you
need a regular text view when viewing the original XML file, and then you need
a dual view of the translated document - one showing the braille and one
showing the accompanying ink - basically a reformatted version of the regular
view. This is what I called the "ink view". I hope that we are not working
from different models of what BB is supposed to do.
My original vision was that users would create or import a document, and when
it is more or less finished, translate it. From that point on, one is no
longer working with the original XML document - one is working with the UTD
document. The text on screen is the same but formatted to match the braille, so
all lines are very short. A smart user would do little or no editing of text
in such a document but can edit the braille as she chooses. Since almost any
braille editing is gonna cause line/page wrap problems, one should re-translate
before embossing the final copy. To keep true synchronization between the
braille and ink copy, BB would need to re-translate continually, and that seems
pretty heavy overhead to me. Keeping the portions scrolling together might be
a much easier problem, but it might not be trivial to take account of how line
wrapping in one view is to be handled when scrolling.
I don't know much about displaying graphics. Huge files are a big problem, and
displaying graphics just makes them lots harder. But you need to have the
graphics.
John G
From:
brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith Creasy
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:28 PM
To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Chuck Myers; Mark Klarer
Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Editor
That's what I thought but John B. seems to prefer directly editing XML. So, my
position is that either way we need that ability to make the DAISY view/editor
as visually functional as possible. At a minimum it needs to format the text in
a sane manner and include images. Ideally it should also respect style
attributes and CSS. This is an essential component if BB is ever going to
appeal to 99% of the braille transcribers and producers out there.
The model I had in mind is a base XML document with two views. Both views
update the document dynamically and the parent view handles tex-change events.
There are a lot of details to work out but I think an HTML editor view would
work. As we do this we can better encapsulate the document/view objects so that
an MDI feature is more easily implemented if that is something folks want.
Another thing to consider is that several tools, including Word, is choaking on
the larger NIMAS files so opening and rendering the entire XML document at once
may not even be practical. The XML DOM plus images can get very large. We can
probably open the entire XML document but I doubt that we can render the entire
thing with images. At least the images need to be loaded and rendered on an
as-needed basis.
Let's keep talking about this. Some of what others are doing may need to be
suspended until some decisions are made.
Keith
From:
brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Gardner
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:12 PM
To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Editor
Hi Keith, continuous synching was not specified originally in order to keep BB
version 1 as simple as possible. However if it is really easy to do, nobody
would have any objection to it being added.
I guess I am confused about the XML display problem. To my knowledge, it
should be possible to map any of the XML formats that we plan to support onto
HTML, so I see no real problem in using a HTML visual display. What am I
missing here?
John G
From:
brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith Creasy
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:05 PM
To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Editor
I disagree about the need for them to be continuously synchronised. I believe
they should be. Doing so is not a momumental task, much easier than coming up
with the kind of XML editor we need for example. :)
A sighted braille transcriber is going to want the two to match as they work
with changes in one immdiately reflected in the other.
Just my opinion.
Keith
From:
brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Gardner
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:02 PM
To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Editor
Hello Keith. A few comments. I don't understand why the braille view is
read-only. The braille needs to be editable according to the specs. We have
discussed several possibilities for synchronizing the braille and text views.
They don't need to be continuously synchronized, but one does need to have some
button to push to synch them. Synching means nothing more than putting the
cursor more or less in the right place. To fully update both, one
retranslates. After locking the braille changes of course! Of course one
could do some more fancy synching, but this should be pretty straightforward to
implement, and fancier things are likely to be a big can of worms.
You brought up the subject of images and math, and I have forgotten the specs
for those. It is worth having a discussion at this point about the minimum
needed for BrailleBlaster version 1.0. I don't know how one includes images
into embosser data for conventional embossers, but I do know how ViewPlus
embossers handle them. The ViewPlus printer driver just converts them to dots
and sends the image to the embosser along with the braille. This should be
easy to include in the braille view. And the image should also be reproduced
in the "ink view".
Math should be included as MathML,and liblouis can convert it to several
possible math codes. Any math images will need to be converted by the user to
MathML to be translatable. The math braille will be automatically included in
the braille view, and the math image should be included in the ink view.
Interestingly, if one chooses to use DotsPlus for math, it can be treated as an
image in both views without any translation required.
There is still a lot to do with BB, but I agree with you that we need to think
forward about the tools we are using.
John G
From:
brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith Creasy
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:28 AM
To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: nimas@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:nimas@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [brailleblaster] Editor
I've spent some time this weekend looking over the current state of
BrailleBlaster. My main thoughts so far are:
The text editor/view needs to display the DAISY/NIMAS document as HTML with
mixed fonts and images. Maybe we could use something like
http://djproject.sourceforge.net/ns/ to do this? Please check it out and share
your thoughts. Showing images is important since many textbooks contain images
that need descriptions and also use images for such things as diagrams and math
equations. This is where BB can shine by providing a nice user interface for
expressing these items in text or Nemeth braille. XSL transforms can be used to
render the XML to HTML for viewing and editing.
Along with this is the need to support or allow one to use a braille display
and keyboard to directly edit in the braille view. Maybe the screen readers can
be used to make this work. Not sure. It would be great if the braille
keyboard/display could be locked onto the braille view somehow.
The braille view is read-only. We can probably use the current StyledText view
for editing braille since we won't need images or mixed fonts in braille.
We'll need a mechanism for synchronising the two views. I'm thinking the parent
view can be notified of any edits to either view and then send a message with
the view that changed and an object containing information about the change.
Android has a nice structure for doing this and LibLouis provides information
about the current offsets for braille and text. We use this for the Braille
Plus' braille editor to synchronise the braille editor with the edit control in
the Android app.
In my opinion this is what is most needed in BB to make it the kind of powerful
tool we want and need. Let's think about this and try to identify the best way
to get this accomplished. I'm willing to put in some developer time-my own
time-to work on it but we need to agree on what libraries/controls to use.
Also, we found a translation bug in LibLouis but our library is out of date.
Does anyone know off hand if it still reverse-translates "update" to "upaidate"?
Thanks.
Keith
Other related posts:
