Wow, who could begin to respond to all of that! But I will make some points.
The guy flipping hamburgers at your neighborhood café is probably not making
a decent living. And some of the folks who are making huge amounts of
money, are doing so by manipulating money rather than benefiting from war,
or at least, not directly. And, the employees of American military
contractors who service the American planes in Saudi Arabia being used
against the Yemenis, are benefiting from murdering innocents, even though
they are members of the working class and not making billions of dollars.And
all of us who purchase products manufactured by people paid barely
subsistance wages, (I mentioned I phones the other day but our computers and
much of our clothing can be included) are benefiting from the near
enslavement of people who are less well off than we are. Yes, there's a
system with people who have more wealth and power than we do, who are at the
top, but we are all complicit on one level or another.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 4:27 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: what is the working class?
Class distinctions ebb and flow. What determines our current Class
Assignments comes from today's general agreement, based upon where the folks
making the determination see themselves. When I previously wrote that I see
our society in two Classes, only. The Working Class and the Ruling Class, I
understood that this is not a current belief held by most people, in what
our Class Structure looks like. In my simple-mindedness, I see only
"Givers", and "Takers".
All other qualifiers are simply window dressing.
Now I know there are many who will disagree with my division. And probably
I might do so myself, one fine day.
Certainly my heart surgeon would scowl at my inclusion of him as, "Working
Class". He is a fine surgeon, highly skilled and trained at one of our
nation's foremost "Doctor Schools". Indeed, in several conversations, he
indicates that he is not even comfortable calling himself, "Middle Class".
While he did not say so, I get the impression that he feels that he is in
either a Professional Class, or in an Upper Middle Class. My doctor is also
a strong Republican supporter. I have not seen him since Donald Trump was
uplifted to "lead" his Republican Party, since my doctor's skill cured me
nearly one year ago, I can only speculate on his plight. But just who he
will give his vote to, is his problem, not mine. Whoever my doctor votes
for, he is still in the Working Class. Despite his high education and his
high income and where he lives and what he drives, he still is serving the
Ruling Class. Setting aside my doctor's attitude regarding his standing in
the Human Pecking Order, his income taxes are sent to the US treasury, where
they are used to support the objectives of the Ruling Class. His taxes,
like mine and yours, assuming you pay Income Taxes, cannot be targeted to
only certain purposes. All of us understand that the major share of our
income tax goes to support the Empire's War.
Without becoming too involved in arguing my point that there are only two
classes, I know that my doctor supports a wide number of state and local
candidates who, if elected, will go to their various government offices and
begin working hard to support the American Empire's objectives. And just
who decides these Objectives? They are set in place by the people most
effected by them, of course, it's the Ruling Class.
If anyone is confused and wonders just which Class they are in, ask
yourselves, :How much do I profit by the deaths of thousands of young
American people placed in foreign lands, who die protecting my special way
of life? If you can see that your personal fortune has increased by 50%
since our "Recovery", as has happened in the case of the world's richest
man, Bill Gates, whose fortune increased from 60 billion dollars, to over 90
billion dollars during this so called recovery,while at the same time, the
lower half of our American population has seen a slight decrease in our
personal fortunes, then you are probably in the Ruling Class.
Of course my heart specialist does not relate to that lower half, since he
is in a protected group which has seen small increases in their personal
wealth. Naturally my doctor is not going to want to "associate" with the
people who took the loss. But whether he likes it or not, he is a member of
the working class.
A former student of mine, from the days when I taught Braille at the
Orientation and Training Center, chatted with me the other day. He said,
"I'm not a member of the Working Class, because I haven't worked in ten
years". I asked him if he believed that anyone who wanted to work should
have a job, and that their job should pay a living wage?
I said that just because the Ruling Class has put in effect laws and
conditions that relegate you to Life's trash heap, does not mean that you
are no longer a member of the working class.
I said that the Ruling Class has robbed you of your meager wealth and of
your opportunity to work. Don't let them rob you of your dignity.
Gather together others who, like yourself have been cast aside, and go to
the offices and homes of the Ruling Class and their Totties and demand that
you be treated with respect.
Personally, I would far rather be earning a decent living flipping
hamburgers at Joe's Cafe, rather than managing some pharmaceutical
corporation, making my living off the highly over priced life-saving drugs
that are beyond the financial means of so many Working Class folks.
We, in the Working Class, need to turn our focus away from our differences
and count our many similarities. Regardless of perceived differences, we
all need to learn to respect one another. Respect.
The cornerstone on which we build a better society.
Carl Jarvis
On 08/27/16, Alice Dampman Humel <alicedh@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
But doctors are not considered working class, neither in capitalistfar.
society nor in the socialist and communist societies that have existed so
Working class is not as rigidly simple as those who apply labor tofalse assumptions and/or flawed logic and saying I am/we are working class,
nature to produce something. I think it does also include less
measurable or tangible, things such as education, income or economic
level, cultural affinities, behavior, life style, dress, food, And I
think both the Marxist, the capitalist, and the socialist and
communist societies that have existed so far all include such things,
too. The whole anti-intellectual actions seen on both sides
historically is an example of that. You grew up the son of a doctor?
You are going to work in a factory to learn to give up your bourgeois
ways. My son, the doctor is a far cry from my son, the factory worker
in most contemporary society. Its not a feeling in the heart, its
not entirely subjective, but assuming the actions of the person do
somehow fit with the words he uses to define himself, then I do think
that where one places ones self has some validity. What I get a
little suspicious about, though, is how one person or a committee or
other determining body insists on critiqueing another, often based on
will be, and that is all wrong.
If someone calls himself working class and frequents fancyish
restaurants a few times a week and blows $100 each time, is he working
class? And capitalist commerce has blurred the lines, too. Now, anyone
can buy diamonds at Sears, so although those diamonds are hardly the
quality found at Fortunoffs or Tiffanys, the working class now has
diamonds, too, and along with bread and circus, theyre deceived into
thinking the upper class has admitted them to their ranks. And theres
that blurring of what Roger will accept as class definition and what
he rejects. But I think its all part of the same puzzle. And I also
think that upper, middle, lower class has a seat at the table, too,
because it fleshes out this whole class thing. When is the last time
you saw a debutante in her white dress at her coming-out cotillion
with her upper class arms and shoulders covered in tattoos? Maybe a
little rose or butterfly on her ankle or on her tush, but All of this
is part of an objective reality, too. The difficulty is how it fits
together, and what the sort of ripple effect does with it. A classless
society? Im not sure what that even is or would be. There will always
be differences, until were all robots or zombies. And even then
Maybe more to the point is that it shouldn't matter that much, and it
shouldnt be quite so existential. The shuffling money around class
certainly contributes to making class determine what the lives of others
On Aug 27, 2016, at 10:21 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81" for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Doctors do useful labor. That is enough for them to be working class.
The fact that they have been granted certain privileges in capitalist
society does not change the fact that their labor is useful. Trading
stocks is not useful though.
On 8/27/2016 7:58 PM, joe harcz Comcast wrote:
Roger and Marx did have a good definition though. In fact working
class does not exclude doctors, for example per se. They do labor of
a certain sort and do indeed alter nature in healing people through
science and skill.
Income in the capitalist schema doesn't matter to Marxists, or other
schooled socialists in definitional terms.
In other words doctors would be considerred a part of the working
class in a socialist schema.
They probably wouldn't make the average income they do in capitalist
society, but they would still be working class.
----- Original Message -----
From: Alice Dampman Humel
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 7:49 PM
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: what is the working class?
I do not use the Marxist definition of working class. Not at all.
On Aug 27, 2016, at 7:35 PM, Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Alice, Roger and Carl use the Marxist definition of working class
with Carl doing a bit of expanding. If we were on an email list
with no members who were dedicated to the classic theory of working
class, we could talk about all the complexities. Given that we're
were we are, I'm trying to avoid the whole question, entirely.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice ;
Dampman Humel
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 5:10 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: what is the working class?
to expand on my own message and questions:
who gets to decide whether one is working class?
If that surgeon, using his own definition of working class, as
Frank wishes and claims the right to do, sees himself as working
class, does a third party, including me, have the right to say he
is not?
How much does the life one lives, the choices one makes to do with
the same wages as the next person, factor into the working class
designation?
Does the factory worker who puts every penny he can into buying a
house in the burbs cease to be working class when he and his family
move out of their cramped, substandard apartment even though he
still works in the same factory at the same job at the same wage?
What about his buddy who earns the same money laboring at the same
job but blows every paycheck at the local bar? Is he more working
class? Is one answer, or are both answers, yes or no stereotyping
and profiling?
If my questions indicate nothing else, they surely indicate quite
clearly that this is a complex question that can't be left to each
person's personal preference or to some rigid, two-line definition.
Where does that leave us? ?
That's what I mean when I say that in order to have any kind of
meaningful conversation that included anything about the working
class
On Aug 27, 2016, at 4:26 PM, Alice Dampman Humel
<alicedh@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
so if you're working class, you're not permitted to earn a good
living?
. And Bob's arbitrary income and/or educational measuring
standards seem completely irrelevant. I really doubt anyone has
investments that they live from that give them such a modest
return. There wouldn't be such a problem with that.but when those
returns for no labor at all are millions and millions, it's an
entirely different matter.
and Carl added the requirement that the working class person must
be working to support the ruling class.
Many people seem to require a certain degree of suffering and
hardship to qualify for the working class.
Roger quotes a definition that the labor must be directly applied
to nature.
So it seems to me that everyone has their own personal spin on it,
and, it also seems to me that many spins include a certain amount
of exclusion of others and inclusion of the self based at least in
part on those spins On Aug 27, 2016, at 10:02 AM, Bob Hachey
<bhachey@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Hi all,
No doubt, trying to define what is the working class is not going
to be easy. One could argue that it means earning less than a
certain income, let's say $40,000.00. The flaw there is that one
could be earning such income from investments and not working at
all. Also, picking a number for the income is problematic at best.
Others might say that it means doing some sort of physical labor.
But some folks like plumbers and electricians earn a pretty good
living doing physical labor.
Still others might argue that it is based on one's education level.
But we all know folks who are relatively well educated who don't
make much money and we know other less educated types who earn more
money.
By the way, I
hesitate to use the word earn because it implies that all who get
money deserve what they get and that is certainly not true in these
days of injustice and tremendous income inequality.
Perhaps the best way to look at this is to take the approach that
former SCOTUS justice Potter took in trying to define what is
obscenity. He said that he couldn't define it specifically but that
he knew what it was when he saw it.
Bob Hachey
