As to the Question of who gets to decide on who is the working class, it
depends on whether you mean the question subjectively or objectively.
If you let anyone decide who is in the working class you are back to
subjective feelings again and the concept of class means nothing because
it means everything. That kind of vagueness is beyond useless. If you
mean that someone should be expected to arbitrarily decide what the
working class is then you are still putting yourself in a position that
makes a mockery out of objective reality. It is allowing some single
person to impose a subjective view on everyone else and that person's
subjective view may have nothing to do with reality. On the other hand,
if you mean that the concept is defined by objective circumstances then
no one decides what the working class is. It is only a manifestation of
reality. It is only that certain words and labels have been applied to
the objective situation so that we may talk about that objective
situation. In that case, it is objective reality that certain people
apply labor to materials to make useful things and other people do not.
The simple fact that there is one group who do it and another who do not
do it causes an objective division. The ones who do apply the labor have
been labeled working class to differentiate them from the class that
does not perform the labor. Those who do not perform the labor are
excluded from that working class and depending on whatever they do
happen to do belong to some other class. Now the words that are used to
describe this objective situation, such as class or working class, may
have been decided on by someone or several someones a long time ago, but
they did not decide on the objective reality. The words are only a means
by which to talk about the objective reality.
On 8/27/2016 5:09 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
to expand on my own message and questions:
who gets to decide whether one is working class?
If that surgeon, using his own definition of working class, as Frank wishes and claims the right to do, sees himself as working class, does a third party, including me, have the right to say he is not?
How much does the life one lives, the choices one makes to do with the same wages as the next person, factor into the working class designation?
Does the factory worker who puts every penny he can into buying a house in the burbs cease to be working class when he and his family move out of their cramped, substandard apartment even though he still works in the same factory at the same job at the same wage? What about his buddy who earns the same money laboring at the same job but blows every paycheck at the local bar? Is he more working class? Is one answer, or are both answers, yes or no stereotyping and profiling?
If my questions indicate nothing else, they surely indicate quite clearly that this is a complex question that can’t be left to each person’s personal preference or to some rigid, two-line definition.
Where does that leave us? ?
That’s what I mean when I say that in order to have any kind of meaningful conversation that included anything about the working class
On Aug 27, 2016, at 4:26 PM, Alice Dampman Humel <alicedh@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:alicedh@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
so if you’re working class, you’re not permitted to earn a good living?
. And Bob’s arbitrary income and/or educational measuring standards seem completely irrelevant. I really doubt anyone has investments that they live from that give them such a modest return. There wouldn’t be such a problem with that…but when those returns for no labor at all are millions and millions, it’s an entirely different matter.
and Carl added the requirement that the working class person must be working to support the ruling class.
Many people seem to require a certain degree of suffering and hardship to qualify for the working class.
Roger quotes a definition that the labor must be directly applied to nature.
So it seems to me that everyone has their own personal spin on it, and, it also seems to me that many spins include a certain amount of exclusion of others and inclusion of the self based at least in part on those spins
On Aug 27, 2016, at 10:02 AM, Bob Hachey <bhachey@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bhachey@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi all,
No doubt, trying to define what is the working class is not going to be
easy. One could argue that it means earning less than a certain income,
let's say $40,000.00. The flaw there is that one could be earning such
income from investments and not working at all. Also, picking a number for
the income is problematic at best.
Others might say that it means doing some sort of physical labor. But some
folks like plumbers and electricians earn a pretty good living doing
physical labor.
Still others might argue that it is based on one's education level. But we
all know folks who are relatively well educated who don't make much money
and we know other less educated types who earn more money. By the way, I
hesitate to use the word earn because it implies that all who get money
deserve what they get and that is certainly not true in these days of
injustice and tremendous income inequality.
Perhaps the best way to look at this is to take the approach that former
SCOTUS justice Potter took in trying to define what is obscenity. He said
that he couldn't define it specifically but that he knew what it was when he
saw it.
Bob Hachey
