Again, I say what I mean and mean what I say. I don't know how to do it
any other way.
---
Albert Einstein
“Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.”
― Albert Einstein
On 10/14/2019 12:16 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
I suggested that you join the list because I thought you would enjoy it. I
could tell from your posts on another list, that you are politically left of
center, and so were many people on this list. Given the political orientation
of most blind people whom I've encountered, I thought you'd enjoy interacting
with the members of blind democracy.
When I talk about the tone of your messages, I do not mean the musical tone. I
mean the emotional tone. Words convey emotion as well as factual meaning. I do
not mean to bash you. What I'm trying to tell you is that what your messages
convey emotionally, can be hurtful. Because you are unaware of the emotional
impact of what you write, you misinterpret what I am trying to say to you.
Alice, in her own way, was trying to say the same thing. I realize, from
reading your post, that I've inadvertently fallen into the same trap as you
have. You say that you're providing information to us that you have and that
we don't. You feel that this is your duty and your right. Well, actually, when
I talk to you about the emotional effect that what you write has on others, I'm
doing the same thing, trying to tell you something that you may not be aware
of. My expertise comes from my professional social work education and years of
experience working with people on an individual basis. But you don't like
hearing what I'm trying to teach you, any more than I like hearing what you're
trying to teach me. So I won't be having this discussion with you any more
after this email, at least I hope I won't.
I'll close by saying that what I understand from your email, is that you feel
that you have been unjustly victimized by Alice and me, as well as by Mustafa,
that when I express my understanding of situations that occur on the list, you
think that I am misrepresenting what is happening, and you think that I should
passively accept whatever you choose to say or else I should unsubscribe. You
also believe that any of us could have taken over the technical aspects of
operating the list if we'd only been willing and tried. You do not accept my
continued assertions that it takes a talent and a certain kind of intuition to
have been able to learn all of what you can do on the computer, with no special
training.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted
sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2019 9:20 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: The blind democracy list
I am very aware of the fact that choosing to leave a list reflects on how
valuable a person finds that list. I said myself that when I leave a list, even
if it is just because I am getting too much email, that I am making a statement
to myself about which lists have priority for me. But there is no reason to
read something into a person's leaving that is not there. If a person says that
he is leaving because he is getting too much email I have no reason to
disbelieve that and I don't make up reasons that I have no evidence for and I
certainly do not make any snide remarks about it being a gentle way to give
feedback on the list.
That was entirely uncalled for. As for suggesting that you leave the list, that
is entirely up to you. If you leave and say that it is because you are getting
too much email I will accept that as the truth.
However, your remark about it being a gentle way to leave feedback shows that
you are unhappy about the list. Your persistence in reading things into what I
say that have nothing to do with what I say, with what I mean or with anything
I even thought of shows that you are unhappy with the list. Or at least it
shows that you are unhappy about my being on the list. I do not say that it
shows that you are unhappy about how I run the list because I don't run it. No
one gets censored here by me except now . And the fact that I
finally gave in and censored him was because you pressured me into it. I seem
to have stuck myself with a job though. The first time I subscribed was at your
invitation because you liked one of my email tag lines. After staying on the
list for a while I did unsubscribe and the reason was that I was getting too
much email and this list was low enough of a priority for me to drop it. Then a
long time later I subscribed again because of David Bond. He was one of the
moderators of the BARD Talk list and he started privately emailing me because
he was extremely upset about, not just one of my tag lines, but all of them and
he was demanding that I remove them. I declined and resubscribed to this list
again to rally support for myself just in case David kicked me off the BARD
Talk list. The problem with him has passed. He died. I stuck around anyway and
then Octothorp fell apart because of another death. No one was making a move to
move the list and everyone, especially you, seemed to think it would take a
technical genius to set up another list. It doesn't take any kind of technical
expertise beyond just being able to operate a computer at all. You just follow
the prompts. But since no one else was doing anything about it I took on the
job of setting up a new list myself. I was right on the verge of leaving
because the entire list seemed to have turned into a festival of Roger bashing.
But by taking over as list owner I seemed to have committed myself. The Roger
bashing has continued and since Alice left you seem to be the number one Roger
basher not withstanding Mostafa. This is a job that I did not particularly
want, but moderating by not moderating does make it easier than it was for the
last list I moderated. I might admit, though, that the first list I moderated
probably was a lot more work because, in retrospect, I realize that I probably
did not yet have enough computer skills to launch that effort. But talk about a
thankless job. I am in the position of being a list owner where the main
activity is bashing me. As for the tone you mention, I don't know what you are
talking about. To me tone is something related to music and it is related to
pitch. I might metaphorically say that the only tone I notice is the constant
hostility toward me and I have no explanation for that. I offer up my opinions
just like anyone else and I engage in kindly and friendly discussion with
everyone. One thing you object to is my efforts to teach. I am sorry, but when
I see that someone does not understand something that I do understand I try to
explain it. That is a natural and normal thing to do. It is called being
helpful. When someone does the same thing for me I appreciate it. Somehow,,
though, you seem to think it makes me a bad person to be helpful. That makes no
sense to me. But if you really find it so hard to stand anything I write then
perhaps it is time for you to unsubscribe. If you don't leave us, though, I
would really appreciate it if you would respond to what I have to say and not
to something that you have read into what I say that is simply not there. In an
earlier communication you said that you are incapable of that. If that is true
then you are saying that you are incapable of communication. If a person cannot
say something to you without your applying feelings to it that come out of
nowhere or out of who-knows-where then a person cannot convey a concept to you
at all. Now, I suppose you will be highly offended by this message because I
dare criticize you and if you follow your usual pattern you will read
criticisms into it that I did not even make, but just think how I feel with
these constant snide remarks about my supposed motives that I do not have.
---
Albert Einstein
“Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.”
― Albert Einstein
On 10/13/2019 9:53 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
1. When people unsubscribe from some lists and remain on others, it's an
indication that the lists from which they've unsubscribed are less valuable to
them than the ones that they've stayed on. That's why people, like the DB
Review list owner, are so pleased to announce each year, the number of
subscribers and the fact that the list remains stable. Alan also announces
statistics for the BARD Talk list each week. And now that he's the moderator
for the Jaws Users list, he does the same. People see these statistics as an
indication of the success and stability of the list.
2. The rest of your post was an angry rant at me for expressing my opinion
about the nature of your debate with Mustafa. Basically, you were scolding me
or bullying me. I've never complained about political discussion. I have
complained about the tone that some of us use sometimes, during political
discussion.
3. Your suggestion that if I don't like the way in which you conduct political
discussion, I should leave the list, is very unwise. If there are others who
don't like the way you or any other of us behaves on the list and leave for
that reason, there'll be no list.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 10:19 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: The blind democracy list
Miriam, there you go again. You are reading things into what someone said who
said no such thing. He said that he was getting too much email. I have been
there. I have unsubscribed from any number of email groups because I was
getting to much email to keep up with. It had nothing to do with any kind of
feedback. I ordinarily unsubscribe without saying anything, but if I didn't
know how I would likely ask and it would not be any kind of feedback. About as
close as it would come to that is that it might be a statement to myself about
which lists I give higher or lower priority to. But when you ascribe statements
to people who made no such statement you are most probably getting it wrong.
When you ascribe attitudes or motives to others that you feel yourself you are
most probably getting it wrong too. But rather than projecting your own
feelings onto someone else who simply wanted to know how to unsubscribe you
might want to deal with those feelings of your own. If you are really so
unhappy with this list then perhaps it is you who should be unsubscribing. I
promise you that I would not pull a Mostafa and follow you around the Internet
forcing my opinions on you even if you begged me to stop. If, on the other
hand, if you stay on a list that I am on and especially if you stay on a list
where politics and philosophy are discussed you will be getting some of my
opinions. There are a lot of email lists out there that might suit you better
because I am not on them expressing my opinions. You can do a search on pretty
much any of the email list hosting sights and you will find plenty of them. But
remember this. If you subscribe to any list where politics is discussed it will
be almost impossible to find any where everyone agrees with you. If you are
going to get upset every time someone disagrees with you then perhaps you
should avoid email lists where political subjects are discussed. But there is
something else that you should keep in mind. If you would stop reading things
into what other people say that they did not say then you just might find out
that they don't disagree with you as much as you think they do.
---
Albert Einstein
“Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.”
― Albert Einstein
On 10/12/2019 4:27 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
That's feedback about this list, couched very tactfully.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 3:40 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; deann.elliott@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: The blind democracy list
Ah! A lurker speaks up. Alas, though, it is only to ask how to leave.
Go back to the same page that you use to subscribe, but change the
combo box from its default setting of subscribe to unsubscribe. Here
is the link to that page:
https://www.freelists.org/list/blind-democracy
---
Albert Einstein
???Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.???
??? Albert Einstein
On 10/12/2019 3:27 PM, deann.elliott@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
Hi All,
Thank you for some interesting conversation. I've read several articles posted
here, and found them thought provoking.
Unfortunately, I need to cut back on the amount of mail that comes into my "in"
box--Could someone remind me of the unsubscribe procedures?
Thank you,
DeAnn
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of R. E. Driscoll
Sr
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 1:24 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: my humble analysis of the blind
democracy list
All:
Other than the links associated with blindness I have not contacted any social
links.
Richard
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 12, 2019, at 10:09 AM, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
???The following is a personal opinion, and not to be confused with actual
facts:
With that being said, it is my opinion that what we are
encountering is a normal process. A new fad comes along...like
Email. Suddenly we can all chatter from nearly anywhere in the
world. Free! Well, after the cost of the Internet. And so we
gather in little special interest groups. Eventually the newness
wears off and we turn to other interesting distractions.
My kids and their kids are mostly on Facebook. Something about
"liking" strangers is annoying to me, so I keep swearing I'll never
hook up with Facebook.
I've learned a great deal from my involvement with several Lists.
But I've also come up against interesting behaviors that I have no
answer for.
A major question for me is why we can't accept the opinions of
others as just that, opinions. Opinions offer us the luxury of
exploring subjects without committing ourselves. We can explore,
challenge, disagree, and alter our own opinions on countless subjects.
But what I find, is a strong resistance to interaction. rather
than debating an opinion, folks want to defend their own belief by
trashing the opinions of others. We end up with what looks like a
bunch of Fox News Channels, each one shouting out their beliefs
while closing their eyes and ears to all around them.
I wonder if this is learned behavior, or is it part of our Human makeup?
For my way of thinking, the great value I derive from Blind
Democracy is the open forum on which I can explore what I have
thought, and how the new information fits in, or alters what I
believed. If that makes any sense. The offering of out of the way
articles stimulates my thinking. I don't have to accept it as factual, or
trash it as lies.
It is simply fodder for mind expansion.
Don't others on this list...assuming that there really are,
"others", feel the thrill of exploring new ideas, and plugging them
into our existing beliefs?
Over and over we see examples of emerging dictators shutting down
the exchange of thought, as the nations become less and less free.
And yet, this is exactly what I see on several lists. Either I am
asked to shut my Marxist or Socialist mouth, or people announce
they are leaving the list because they don't enjoy the arguing. In
other words, they don't like my opinions, but can't offer theirs.
Instead of a discussion that leads to mind expansion, we see folks
slam the door against anything they feel might challenge their own beliefs.
Finally, for this rant, disagreement is not to be confused with
turning people or groups against one another. Disagreement, given
with respect, is the door to a stronger world.
Carl Jarvis, wanting to be an Opinion er, not a Preacher!
On 10/11/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I'm not sure how many people actually read this sadly depleted list.
A few of us keep on posting, most likely to fill our own needs for
self expression. Once in a great while, Bob Hachey, Penny, or
Frank posts a message. Richard comments briefly, upon occasion.
But we have two people who basically dominate the list. Roger is
our instructor-in-chief. He consistently instructs us in logic,
and keeps our thoughts and language usage within, what he
believes to be, appropriate boundaries. Carl is our loving and gentle preacher.
It is not traditional religion that he preaches, but a gentle
version of what Roger is attempting to teach. Roger enjoys debate.
Carl never argues and is always kind and thoughtful. It's kind of
like, "good cop, bad cop". Roger and I post articles. Carl is
supportive by always commenting on our articles, although I'm not
sure that he gets time to read many of them. It's a kindness
because of he didn't comment, neither of us would know if anyone
bothered to read what we post. Most people aren't interested or
they just get turned off by the occasional arguments. Few people
are left from the original list and our recent visitors appear to
have left. Evan left because, as he told me, he just doesn't like to spend time
arguing.
I come across some articles that seem really interesting and that
are very different from what is available from mainstream
websites, and I can't resist posting them in case there's some
lurker who would benefit from reading the article and who wouldn't
know that it existed, if I didn't post it. But I do wonder,
sometimes Unlike our two white male leaders, who pretend that
they're not leading, I don't particularly enjoy teaching or
preaching. I'm also a rebellious soul so I have issues with having
my wayward thoughts and emotions, corrected. But I suspect that most people
feel that way.
Most people like to express their thoughts and feelings and they
can usually tolerate a gentle disagreement. Carl and I, for
example, will never agree about how to define class. But it doesn't matter.
We just occasionally disagree. I've learned from listening to
podcasts on which I hear younger people talk, and also from
articles, that the battles and insults on twitter are a whole lot
worse than most of the really angry interchanges we've had on this
list. I guess that's one of the down sides of technology.
Miriam
